Podcast

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. Today, we’re going to meet a mother and her son from a Brethren family here in Sydney. They’re well known and loved amongst the Brethren community and they’ve experienced sadness and loss, but also a lot of joy in their family life. We think they have a beautiful and unique perspective to share with our audience about their faith, the church community, and how it’s helped carry them through the tougher times of life. It’s my pleasure to welcome Mrs. Joy Hutchison and her youngest son, Roland Hutchison, to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Joy. Could you please introduce yourself?

Joy: Thanks, Lloyd. I’m Joy Hutchison. I’m 73 years of age. My much-loved husband passed away at the end of 2009, and I’ve recently retired from work, where I worked at One School Global.

Lloyd: And you’ve bought one of your six children here today, Joy. So, welcome to the podcast, Roland. Could you please introduce yourself?

Roland: Thanks, Lloyd. Yeah, my name’s Roland Hutchison. I the youngest of six. I lost my father when I was 19 years of age. I am married now – we had a beautiful little girl, Gertrude, who passed away at the age of 18 months. Now I’ve got two sons. I work as a sales consultant at a company that provides mobility and rehabilitation equipment. Been there now for 18 years since I left school.

Lloyd: Well, thanks for the introductions. Joy, you were born into the church. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood?

Joy: That’s right. I’ve got two brothers and two sisters, one older and one younger. I was born and bred… well, born and brought up in Beecroft where we had a big yard and enjoyed lots of outdoor fun. My father served in World War II, in New Guinea in the medics. So stories of the world war really coloured our lives when we were young. He also had many acquaintances that we used to hear about, some of which were prisoners of war during the Second World War. He actually introduced us to them and we heard their stories as well often talked about it. Other acquaintances too would draw out stories out of our father when we were together, which was interesting.

In our house at Beecroft, we even had goats at one stage because we had such a big yard, and I had some puppies… and was very much a very good family life there. We went on many roadie holidays where we drove around New South Wales and Queensland, Victoria and um was fun also to be together.
However, when I was in my early teens, we moved to Croydon to be closer to my father’s mother and brother. And that was excellent. We had a good life there. It was not far from the main church hall. We had a lot of people in, a lot of people coming and going and entertaining and people staying. And also life down there at Croydon near my young cousins was great. Really enjoyed those days. The best days of my young life.

Lloyd: That all sounds like a pretty perfect childhood.

Joy: It was until I was in about my mid- teens and I started to rebel against the church. I was not always a perfect church goer, that’s for sure.

Lloyd: So, what changed your mind and sort of drew you back to the church?

Joy: Well, it was the death of a young friend in a violent car accident. I was brought face to face with death. I realized that life on the edge was not for me. It was… I had to be all in. I also was surrounded by compassion and care and kindness of those in the community. I felt that life was too short to just live it on the edge. I had to get right into doing the right thing. Entertaining and looking after other Brethren and having people in just became everything to me. I was surrounded by happy Christians who were just doing trying to do what’s right and even they mightn’t have had much they were happy and that gave me happiness and peace. That was a turning point in my life.

Lloyd: So after you graduated from high school, what did you do as a young woman?

Joy: I went to secretarial college and learned shorthand and typing and a bit of bookkeeping. And then I went to work on various jobs in the city, for an insurance company and architects and then I came to the family business.

Lloyd: How did you meet your husband?

Joy: My husband Ian, he wasn’t actually born in the church.  His mother passed away when he was young, only three or four I think, and he was brought up by his godly grandmother who was one of one of us. She had moved from Denmark when she was 12 and came amongst the Brethren. A very real person and a wonderful influence on us. We always loved her, and I went to school with his sisters as well. So I got to know him that way. But also my young cousins and I… we followed him around to preachings that he was going to, my young cousins and I. Wherever it might be, Fairfield, Chatswood, Croydon, Ashfield. He played the guitar and he was a beautiful singer. Wherever we went people would hand him a guitar and say ‘sing for us’. He sang songs from Neil Diamond and country songs from John Denver and Glenn Campbell and even the Beatles. And we just had good time singing and playing with us. He even travelled as well. He had been to America and Canada and New Zealand and then he came back and married the girl next door.

Lloyd: So Ian was a great singer. What about you, Joy? Did you sing as well?

Joy: No, I didn’t try to sing. In fact, if I did sing around the house, he’d often look around and say, “Is that a storm brewing?”

Lloyd: So, you had six children together. It must have been a busy life. What was it like to be the youngest of six Roland?

Roland: Yeah, it was fun! It was interesting. I enjoyed it, even being the youngest. I had four brothers and one sister. Shout out to my older sister that must at times felt that she was outnumbered and stuck in the middle. I feel sorry for her having to put up with us all. We grew up, we battled it out in Western Sydney. We grew up in a suburb called Fairfield Heights. Attended primary school in Wentworthville. Both those suburbs are very multicultural areas, and we made a lot of friends who were you know Indian, Chinese, African, Eastern European, Middle Eastern. Was a wonderful mix of cultures in those areas. I played for the school football team and the school cricket team which was probably the highlight of school life. My classroom results probably showed that. But we had a lot of fun as a family, entertaining church members in our house. We loved traveling. Holiday time was always good times, good fun. Whether it’s Christmas or Easter breaks, we love traveling. Didn’t matter whether we were going to the south coast or north coast, interstate – it was so enjoyable. The further the trip, the more enjoy enjoyable it was.

Lloyd: What was the best part about having so many older brothers?

Roland: I loved it, loved the weekends. I was probably the annoying youngest brother. But I always enjoyed having a lot of older brothers that I could tag along with on a Saturday. We used to love, you know, going to a game of rugby on the afternoon on Saturday, whether it be suburban or grassroots or school boys rugby – it was all enjoyable. I do keep an eye on the on the Wallabies, on the national team. I do remember when the Wallabies last won the World Cup in ‘99 and when we won last won the Bledisloe cup against the Kiwis in the early 2000s. It’s been a long lean run for the Wallabies, but one day we’ll get success again. Hopefully that’s not too far away. But yeah, we used to love the rugby on Saturdays.

Lloyd: Yeah, very good. And Joy, it sounds like a very busy household full of fun, but you still had four children at home when your husband passed.

Joy: Yep, that’s right. I was thankful I did, of course. And I had lots of support from many people around, like all my friends and relatives turned up and others on the day. I had two married children as well and I had six grandchildren. We also had people staying in the house because we were entertaining for a church function.
But Ian… it was sudden. It was a very sudden death. Very unexpected. He died doing what he loved most, caring for others and enjoying them and having a good time.

Lloyd: It was such a shock, for that loss. What helped you through that?

Joy: I relied on my link with the Lord. I realised that he did it so he would get me through. And he did. He did. And also, the kindness of the church community. They were just right there when I needed it. Everybody was so caring and supportive and you know, whether it be taking me to sort out things at the bank or taking me for walks or organising my cupboards so that they were a little easier to care for as time went on.
You know I had so much to be thankful for in the community. I really did.

Lloyd: And what about the emotional support?

Joy: Well, to be honest, I had a little thing that I wanted to be strong in front of other people. I  felt that it was my sorrow. I didn’t think that I should make other people sad for what I was going through. So, I always tried to be strong when I was with others, basically for my children as well. But of course, I wasn’t always and many times I was overwhelmed and had to break down.
But yeah, there was always someone that could help me. There was always someone who said a kind word that was just what I needed, you know, like ‘it’s going to get better’ or ‘you’re not alone’ or there was always somebody that helped me and I’m very thankful for that. Very thankful for the community for the support that I received during that time.
Also people outside the community – I mean, even neighbours and other acquaintances that we had, everybody was very supportive. One woman in a shop, she broke down when I told her what had happened, and it was so comforting to think that other people felt your sorrow. Very thankful for it all.

Lloyd: And Roland, you recently suffered another unexpected and devastating loss.
Can you tell us about your little girl?

Roland: We lost our baby girl Gertrude in her sleep at the age of 18 months.
It was a massive shock. It was totally unexpected. She was a well child. There were no health concerns. She was a beautiful little girl. She learned to walk and started to put her first words together. She had a beautiful personality. It was was just something you just don’t expect and was Yeah. hope, you know, hope that it’d never happen.

Lloyd: And what helped you cope with that loss?

Roland: Yeah, it was the kindness and generosity that was shown to us, you know, within hours of hearing of Gertrude’s passing and then the days the the weeks and the months afterwards – thousands of messages and phone calls and emails and gifts that we received from church members universally  was overwhelming. The care and support and the love that was shown was so amazing. It helped us immensely through that tough period, traumatic period. We got, I guess we probably got a sense of peace knowing that we weren’t alone in the sorrow. There were plenty of other church members that have been through similar experiences of losing loved ones and they were always supportive and they still are supportive. It’s probably the best thing, one of the best things about being part of the community is that there’s always someone you can turn to in the hour of need when you when you’re feeling down, when you’re feeling blue. You can always talk to someone. And you know, not only in our community, but outside the community, our neighbours especially were caring and supportive. We live in a little cul-de-sac and there’s quite a sense of community there and they’ve always been a supportive neighbourhood. Especially when Gertrude passed, they were very considerate and very kind and very generous which was overwhelming.

Lloyd: So you got quite a bit of support from the wider community through that whole period.

Roland: Yeah, we did which I’m thankful for. My work colleagues and customers and clients in particular were kind and caring. The customers that had heard about Gertrude’s passing sent us well wishes and sent us gifts which was very generous and kind. In the job that I’m part of we have a I have a lot to do with the elderly and the disabled down including young children. It gives you a sense of compassion and admiration for the disabled and their carers, for what they’ve achieved. You can become well acquainted with different clients, with all your clients.
One client in particular, a lovely old lady that took an interest in my life after few visits with her and she kept up with the fact that I was married and had children and lost a child, and you know, I think two or three Christmases ago she gave me a bag full of Christmas presents. It was a big shopping bag. It was massive and full of Christmas gifts and goodies for us and the family. It was so generous and kind and practical.

Lloyd: So, I guess you enjoyed those with your two little boys?

Roland: Yeah, that’s right. Two little boys. They’re a joy. Our oldest boy, who’s nearly four, he’s a little bit more outgoing and social than our younger boy. He enjoys entertaining, enjoys having people come to the house, enjoys going out. His main interests currently revolve around anything to do with animals. He just loves animals, loves finding out about their habitats. He thinks things like snakes are fun to watch, which is not so great. He also loves construction sites. He seems to be developing an interest in cricket and rugby, which makes life fun.
Our younger boy is a little bit more shy and reserved. He’s more than happy to do his own thing. He loves just being outdoors and plodding around outside.
But both boys have different personalities. They’re both a lot bigger than what Gertrude was. But they’re just they’re great company. They’re great to have around.

Lloyd: So now you’re a father yourself. Do you try and emulate your own dad and the example he set for you?

Roland: Good question, Lloyd. As mom said, dad was born outside the church, joined as an 8-year-old. He lost his mom when he was young. I think he was about three. And then his father left him and his two sisters to the care of their to their grandmother. He had a tough early life. It was difficult, but he enjoyed his life. He valued his family and valued his connections that he’d made. I don’t think he ever looked back and had any regrets about his early life. We never had much money to come and go on as kids growing up. But dad always taught us that you didn’t need money to be happy. He taught us to he also taught us to try and meet people and value connections, value people’s stories, try and learn about persons and their backgrounds and you know find out about their stories. That’s what I’d love to instil into my boys.

Lloyd: Thank you. That’s all we’ve got time for today, but we do want to come back for another episode because we’ve got more to hear from your story. And thanks to all that have joined us today to listen and watch. Really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you really liked it, please give us a five-star review.

Lloyd: Hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. There’s quite a bit of commentary online and other podcasts coming from persons who have chosen to leave the church and have spoken about some of the negative experiences they’ve had. They’re free to tell their stories of course and I’m not here to discuss them today. But what I would like to speak about is a story about someone that left the church and ultimately made the decision to return to the church. Let me introduce you to Harvey Edmonds.
Thanks Harvey. Thanks for joining the podcast.

Harvey: Thanks Lloyd.

Lloyd: Why don’t we start with a bit of an introduction and let you tell us something about yourself.

Harvey: I’m 41 years old. I’ve been married for about 13 years to my very faithful wife, and I’ve got four children: one boy, 11, and three daughters, 9, 4 and 3. We live in a small country town in central Victoria, and we have a manufacturing business there where I spend my day-to-days. I guess like all dads trying to work out a way to spend less time at work and more time with the kids. But you know, we have some great family times. We love entertaining whether that’s having family and friends in or we go to their place or whether it means, you know, catching up somewhere and having a barbecue and, you know, just doing lots of things with the kids, taking them to the park. I love fishing, going for bike rides, but we’ve got lots of good memories.

Lloyd: You and your family were part of the church. You belong to the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and you grew up in the church. You were raised there. What was your up upbringing like?

Harvey: I had an amazing upbringing. My parents showed me a lot of love and care and we had everything we needed and more. We had lots of adventures growing up as kids, whether that was with the cousins or family friends or whether it was schoolmates on the street. But no, we had a lot of good memories.

Lloyd: However, when you got to about 18 years old, you did make a decision to leave the church. Can you tell us what happened there?

Harvey: It was at the end of 2003 when I was 19 years old. I was a young kid, a bit difficult and I guess I couldn’t really see past the next day. I wanted to get out into the world and explore. I really enjoyed football, wanted to play football and wanted to travel and I was doing my apprenticeship at the time as a boiler maker, you know, which I really enjoyed doing. I guess at the time that’s what I thought freedom was at 18. But, you know, obviously I look back now at 41 and your head space is completely different to when you were 18. But you know, I made the decision to leave the church, and I take full responsibility for that. I read sometimes about some saying that they escaped the church. You don’t ‘escape’ the church. You’re free to go if you want to go.

Lloyd: How did the family react to that when they realized that that was your decision and you were going to leave?

Harvey: My parents were very sad and to be honest it was a horrible time for them, as our relationship would not be the same because of our belief in separation. I had several discussions, lots of discussions with them and other community members who tried to help me to see exactly what I was doing but to be honest you know I was 18 you know I had my ears blocked, and I didn’t want to listen. But no one was angry at me. No one was upset with me and no one mistreated me… but it was a very hard time.

Lloyd: So once you did leave the church, what happened then? What did you do with yourself after that?

Harvey: I was just a young kid. I just wanted to do boy things. I played a lot of footy and did a lot of traveling. Finished off my apprenticeship which I was doing and then I worked for a few years to save up before I went traveling and I spent about two years, I think it would have been, traveling through dozens of countries. Had some experiences, good and bad. One thing I will say and I don’t know why it happened at the time, but I carried my Bible with me wherever I went. Growing up, I had my beliefs and I still in one sense did, but I was nowhere near up to the mark of where I should have been.

Lloyd: There’s a bit of a misconception out there that once people do make the decision to leave the church that you completely cut off from any contact with your family.
Was that your experience or did you manage to keep in contact with the family still?

Harvey: I did have contact, absolutely. For the first year out of the church, I continued to work for my father. I had regular contact with them and other family members. And those in the community tried to reach out to me and would want to speak to me. But to be honest, I was rejecting their calls. I didn’t want to answer. It was all too hard to do that. And while we were in regular contact, I didn’t eat or drink with my family and in leaving the church I knew that this was going to be the case because of our belief in separation. I knew it would mean that, that would be the case, and I fully understand that and respected that, but it was very hard time.

Lloyd: What about when you were traveling? You travelled to dozens of countries overseas. I guess contact stopped when you’re overseas or did you manage to keep a bit of contact going?

Harvey: Obviously the physical contact stopped, but no, my father kept in touch with me. It would have been about 5:00, I think, every Friday afternoon, no matter what the time was wherever in the world I was, dad would call me and just check up on me, make sure I was okay. He probably wasn’t necessarily happy with exactly where I was or what I was doing, but he was touching base to make sure I knew that he was always there for me.

Lloyd: You’re off traveling all around the world – when did you start to kind of think or realize that you maybe you wanted to get back to the church? Was that sort of a gradual realization or was that a point in time that triggered that?

Harvey: There wasn’t a single point in in time when I made the decision to return. But I felt in the back of my mind that where I was, was not where I should be. And it probably even goes back to an early memory when I was at a footy club early on. And I remember one of my good teammates came up to me and he sort of said, you know, and he knew the community, and he knew who we were and he said, Harvey, you know, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here. And you know, he wasn’t being mean or anything like that. He was a good friend. But, you know, I think that idea, you know, probably stayed in the back of my mind for a lot of the time I was traveling.

Lloyd: So, it was more of a gradual realization that sort of came over you as to making that decision.

Harvey: I’d been out of the church for probably 6 years. I just remember starting to, you know, really reflect on my life. My life had been a bit of a merry-go-round to be honest. Every day was a Saturday, and every night was a Saturday night. It was busy and to be honest, I was felt like I was popping parachutes all the time to save myself out of situations. But I guess I just started thinking back to my upbringing and really thinking back to how great it was, the way I was raised within the church. And I guess reflecting on things that I’d seen on my travels. You know, it really drove home to me how great the position was, and the way of life is, the church is, you know, everyone really just caring for each other. But don’t get me wrong, I met some amazing people during my time away and I’m very thankful for them. They were very caring, very kind and you know, I’ll never forget those experiences and those times that I had with them. But I’d seen in my experiences in measure, everything that’s out there. And I guess I just started to reflect on my choices and my decisions. And one thing that sort of come home to me was, you know, how short life is.

Lloyd: Talk me through that whole process of choosing to return to the church. I understand it was, you know, quite the homecoming and in every sense of the word.

Harvey: It was probably about 12 months before I came home that I realized that’s what I wanted to do and I made that decision. I wanted to come home and go to mum and dad and walk in and tell them that I was coming back. But it was probably 2 or 3 months before I got home, I’d become really sick. I had quite a few infections in my lungs and in my ears and I was quite unwell. It was almost like my body knew that something was up and my body had really run out of gas. I remember when I got home I got me mate to pick me up from the airport. He took me to mum and dad’s, and I remember going in and knocking on the door and saying, ‘mum and dad, I want to return’.

Lloyd: And how did they react?

Harvey: They just reacted with overwhelming love and care. You know, there was no rejection. There was no looking down at me at all for whatsoever, for what I’d done. And I remember dad, the first few things he did, he helped me find a house and he helped me get a job and I had some debts, and he paid them out for me. But the whole point, you know, is I was never looked down upon. I’m very thankful for everything they did for me. But I knew I had to change my ways. That took time to get back in line with the church’s beliefs and the way that I wanted to live. And through that time, I remember, when I was coming back and there was a lot of boys and girls that I had grown up, gone to school with in the church and just catching up with them again and meeting up with them again was just an amazing experience. It was as if nothing had happened, the way they accepted me back in. It was through this time that my older sister was diagnosed with cancer. I knew at that time that it was God direct directly talking to me to bring me to be more true to my beliefs and I know that if this didn’t happen, I don’t know where I’d be today.

Lloyd: What about some of these mates you made in the wider community? Did you have to go and explain your decision to them as to coming back to the church and what it was going to mean?

Harvey: I did. I had a core bunch of mates and I went and spoke to them individually and sat down with them and talked about what I wanted to do and explained to them why I wanted to do it and they were very understanding and supportive of that, which I was very thankful for. They were very much supportive to me through that that time and they obviously understood that with this happening now the way we’ve been carrying on with life would change. But again, I really thank them for that time to be there and support and talk through that. And you know, it’s amazing. I still run into them from time to time somewhere and I’ll ask how their family’s going and they’ll ask how mine’s going and we have a bit of a yarn and we have a bit of a discussion and then we move on. And I guess that a lot of people might be able to understand that, you know, in their own experiences, you meet people, you grow apart, you find new friends. But no, I’ll be forever thankful for them through that period.

Lloyd: And I guess coming back to the church was obviously going to require a re-commitment to the pathway of separation as we would call it and all everything that you know would mean for us. Was that hard to re-commit to after eight years away from it?

Harvey: Yeah, it was it was a test for me. A real test for me and something that I had to work on. But, you know, I’d been brought up with understanding separation as a youth and I fully believed in it and I understand why we do it and I can understand from a wider community perspective why it is difficult to understand. But I guess I think it’s important that people understand that separation is based off scripture and it means a lot to us. You know, it’s really a bond that holds us together and it’s  what holds us together in our loyalty to each other.

Lloyd: So, when you’re outside of the church, you would have heard or read negative stories about the church. How did they make you feel?
Harvey: Yeah, it hurt because I know it’s not the truth. You know, there are some sad stories out there and bad experiences, but that’s not what my journey was. Mine was completely different to that. No church is perfect, but I guess what hurts me is those ones that are criticizing individuals in the church, they don’t actually know them personally and to be able to understand them. And that’s what saddens me on those points. And you know what I think about is, I left the church, and I decided to leave the church. And I think you know those that have left the church need to understand that that they left the position.

Lloyd: So do you think it’s fair that critics of the church call it a cult and and say that we’re brainwashing people?

Harvey: No, I think it’s the furthest thing from a cult. And if you think it’s a cult, you don’t understand what the what the church is. And you know, we’re brought up in such a way of love and care and generosity. I just think that there’s so many different personas in our church and that’s what makes it a really interesting way of life but I believe overall it’s a way of attraction and we choose to live this way because we want to.

Lloyd: With the experience you’ve had maybe, apart from what we talked about as separation, do you think the lifestyle amongst people in the church compared to the wider community is all that much different?

Harvey: Not really. We obviously have our meetings and our assemblies and our traditions, which are really special to us, but outside of that our everyday life is very similar to the wider community.

Lloyd: On that topic, what are some of the most bizarre things you heard about the church while you’re out there?

Harvey: I heard a lot of random ones over the years. I remember a mate come up to me once and he wanted to know whether we had a microwave growing up as a kid and I said, ‘Yeah, we had a microwave’”

Lloyd: That’s funny. Earlier you said that you did a lot of traveling after you left the church and you went to multiple countries. Now since coming back to the church have you had any further opportunities to do some traveling?

Harvey: Yeah, absolutely. Before I was married, then after I was married, then even with the kids you know we’ve travelled all over Australia and all around the world and it’s absolutely amazing to travel to these places. We only travel to places where there is a meeting because the meetings are so important to us but one thing that really sticks in my mind about traveling is you know no matter where you go you find a connection pretty much instantly whether it’s at the airport or whether it’s at the home of someone within the community. It’s really special. It’s such a system of care, nothing like I’ve ever experienced before.

Lloyd: And looking back on your time away from the church, is there anything you would have changed or do you think that whole experience kind of brought you to the point you are now and the pathway you’re back on now? Do you think that’s all been part of your journey as it were?

Harvey: Yeah, to be honest, Lloyd, I wish I didn’t have this story to tell. The heartache I caused, and that’s something that I live with. But I did and I guess that is what’s brought me to be who I am today.

Lloyd: You spoke quite a bit about your own upbringing and your younger years and now you’ve got your own family to bring up, your own four children, which you’re bringing up in the church. So what’s your reflections on that?

Harvey: I feel grateful for the way I was brought up and ultimately that is what led me back home because of the way I’d been brought up, because of the love and care that I’d experienced in my family and within the community. That’s what I hope that I can relay on to my kids, to show that same love, that care, that generosity and within the community that they can experience that.

Lloyd: And what is it that you really wish the wider community understood about the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church that they don’t necessarily understand?

Harvey: I think it’s pretty simple. You know, we’re just loving, caring, generous, practical Christians. And you know, I think people maybe need to meet us and understand us and then they can make their opinion.

Lloyd: There’s obviously a lot of volunteering done within the church on many fronts and I understand you make quite a bit of time for volunteering in your life.

Harvey: Thanks. Yeah, I do Lloyd. It’s absolute privilege to be to be part of it. It’s a way of showing and caring for the wider community and within the community. I’m part of the team that do new builds and renovations in our schools right across Australia and it’s just amazing to be part of these teams and working with the teachers and the principal, the students and builders etc to just create these great spaces for the kids and it’s very rewarding. I also do a little bit for the venue management side to help coordinate where we have our meetings, the setups. There’s a lot of work involved in that but you get to work with a big team, and you’ve all got a goal together and it’s really rewarding and fantastic. I used to do a bit in the RRT. Probably don’t do as much as what I used to do now. But it’s so rewarding, you know, whether it’s on the front line of a bushfire and you’re serving the firefighters food and drinks, you know, but it’s a thrill to be part of.

Lloyd: Well, thanks very much, Harvey, for sharing your story. It’s certainly been an interesting discussion and a different perspective. So, I really appreciate you coming along today and thank you to everyone that’s tuned in today to listen. And don’t forget to like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so exclusive podcast.Last episode I introduced you to Eloise Holder. This episode I’m welcoming her back along with her husband Owen and they’re going to share some of their experiences in how the church community helped them through some pretty difficult parts of their life. Welcome to the podcast, Owen and Eloise. Why don’t we start with an introduction from you, Owen, tell us a bit about yourself.

Owen: Thank you, Lloyd. It’s good to be here. I’m Owen. I was born in Bahía Blanca, Argentina, and I lived there until about 8 years ago when I moved to Buenos Aires, where I’ve been living since. I work as the operations manager and the HR manager for Zembr, which is the business that I run with my wife, Eloise.

Lloyd: You’ve got quite good English for an Argentinian. Have you always been in Argentina?

Owen: Yes, I have. I was born there. My first language is English, though. I was born to an English mom and an Argentine dad. So, my family actually arrived in Argentina back in the 1890s as my great-great grandpa Holder. He moved over there as a young man and then a few years later he actually got converted and joined the Brethren, who had started the position there roughly 10 years earlier.

Lloyd: Well, it’s well known to anyone in our church community that you didn’t have the easiest start in life right from an early age. Are you happy to share that story with those that aren’t familiar with it?

Owen: Yeah. So, I was the eldest of four boys to my parents. Unfortunately, when I was just before I turned six, they passed away in a in a car accident. So my dad needed to travel to Buenos Aires for work, for business, and it was actually also a good opportunity for the family up there to meet my youngest brother who was only 12 weeks old. Then halfway up there, it’s about a 6-hour drive, halfway through the journey they had a very violent accident and sadly all five of them passed away. So I wasn’t actually in the vehicle. I had stayed back home in Bahía Blanca because we only had a 5-seater car. So I stayed back with my grandparents in in Bahía Blanca.

Lloyd: So you’re only very young at the time as you said, but do you remember much about the support from the church community?

Owen: Yes. So I remember that night a lot of community members coming around to my family’s house, my grandparents’ house and supporting the family and praying with the family and you know sort of pouring cups of tea and doing what was needed to help at the time. I didn’t actually know… I knew there had been an accident, but I didn’t know the extent of the of the tragedy. It was actually my grandmother who had to break the news to me the next morning. So there’s one thing from that night that sticks in my mind. I don’t actually remember it, but I’ve been told since there was some the local community members who went out that night, at 3 am in the morning to, you know, to get the coffins for my family. So one person went out to get them, buy my parents’ coffins. And then another group of other people actually had to go and make my little brother’s coffins as they couldn’t get the coffins of that that size at that time.

Lloyd: So after you lost your whole family, who did you go to live with then?

Owen: I went to live with my grandparents from my mum’s side. They had a very young family. My mom was the eldest of the family actually. So I just sort of slotted in to their family as the new end of family brat. I was very close to my uncle who was only 11 months older than me. He actually then sadly also passed away about 5 years later in a in another car accident.

Lloyd: And you were living in Australia obviously at the time Eloise. Do you remember the accident?

Eloise: Yeah. I was only nine and obviously you only understand so much when you’re a child but I do remember hearing about it and our parents telling us about t this poor little orphan over the other side of the world. Many mealtimes we would pray for the family and think of Owen and I remember get kneeling down beside the bed and praying with our mom for Owen for many nights thereafter. So yeah, I think we all heard about it in one way or another.

Lloyd: And what’s it like, Owen, to know that there was persons all around the world that were looking out for you, thinking about you, including your future wife back in Australia?

Owen: No, it was very special. I have very special memories of those times. I’ve received a lot of a lot of letters, a lot of notes, very kind notes, kind gifts and presents from different ones around the world from different community members.
They’re very kind to me. I remember sort of presents turning up. If there was if it was a toy or something, there’d be two of them. One for my uncle who was obviously only not even a year older than me. Which is very very thoughtful of everyone. There’s one present in particular which also sticks out is kangaroo skin that I got from some Brethren in Australia signed by sort of 100 or 200 odd Brethren.

Lloyd: So how did all that support from the community connect with your own personal faith to help you through this difficult period?

Owen: Yeah. So, I’m honestly not sure where where I’d be without that support from the church and without my faith, which is obviously also thanks to the church and then my link with God. Obviously God might put us through certain challenges, through certain difficulties which test us to right to the to the core. But as we turn to Him in our need and dependent on him and turn to Him in prayer and get closer to Him in His grace and mercy, He comes in for us and you know helps us overcome the challenges and the difficulties and gives us the strength to bear the pain.

Lloyd: So despite all the challenges you went through, you did complete your schooling. What did you do after you graduated?

Owen: Yeah. So I completed my schooling at one school in Barbanka and then the opportunity when I left school the opportunity came up to move to Buenos Aires to join the family business there in a sales role which I thoroughly enjoyed and so I lived there for a few years in different roles across the sales team.
And then one day in September 2019 after spending the day at a trade show downtown Buenos Aires I met up with some friends and family members at a at a burger restaurant and met a certain Eloise.

Lloyd: So what do you remember about the first meeting?

Eloise: Well, I remember he was very blonde, quite good-looking I thought at the time. I still do. And really my first impression was that I thought he was quite rude because he didn’t introduce himself to the overseas guest.

Owen: I was shy.

Eloise: Okay. Apparently shy. But we did some talking at some point through the evening, I think we were sitting together when we had our burgers. Can’t really remember that part very well. But I think where the the real spark started to fly was over some ice cream. So Argentina is quite quite famous for its helado which is very delicious ice cream. But we went into the ice cream shop, and I obviously didn’t speak the language. So, I thought it was quite an ideal opportunity to you know play the helpless female and I was, ‘oh help me choose my ice cream and whatever… and yeah sure oh I’ll just have whatever you’re having’. Terrible life choice. So he promptly ordered grapefruit ice cream, which – not sure if you’ve ever tried it, but it’s definitely not that good. His controversial taste buds are definitely a trend that’s continued on throughout our marriage. We  were in Italy last month and he thought it would be a good idea to get me to try olive oil ice cream. Also not a great flavor. But that’s my first impression. Yeah.

Lloyd: So after the sparks flying over grapefruit ice cream, uh, Owen, where did it go from there?

Owen: Yeah. So after that we had a few more evenings together and got on quite well and sort of kept in touch. Then a few months later, I traveled to Australia to see some family there and we actually met up and she met some of my family, I met some of her family and then a few months after that she actually traveled over to Argentina to come and sort of see the place again and meet the rest of my family. And yeah, we sort of decided we definitely quite liked each other at that stage and wanted to sort of build a a new life together. Then unfortunately about 4 days into her trip, the pandemic struck – COVID 19. She had to cut her trip short and quickly get back home to Australia before the borders closed. So then after that the began the the joys of a of a long-distance relationship.
Lloyd: So, what was it like trying to maintain a long-distance relationship with a pending pandemic?

Owen: It certainly wasn’t easy, but we kept in touch through obviously sort of chatted regularly and had phone calls and had the odd Zoom call too and sent each other a few letters every now and again and presents in the in the post. Certainly wasn’t easy, but we sort of got through it and definitely I think helped strengthen the relationship. I think it was it was good for us.

Lloyd: What about for you, Eloise?

Eloise: Well, the long-distance relationship, I guess, was was really only one part of it because then obviously at some point we kind of decided that as I mentioned in the previous episode, it was clear these borders weren’t opening anytime soon.
So, we decided, I’d head over there and get married. Then started the process of getting all the approvals to leave the country and enter the other country. And then I headed over there on one of the empty COVID repat flights. I don’t know if you remember those, but there was about 10 passengers on a big international jet. I think we had almost one hostess each to ourselves. It was a very bizarre experience, empty airports. Headed over there with my wedding dress and my papers and somehow managed to get into the country and then I started two weeks hotel quarantine. So it was all a bit of an interesting experience from start to finish really.

Owen: Once Eloise completed her quarantine, we got married. We had a little wedding, a very sort of simple occasion in a family member’s house. Just a few family members. Obviously, there was restrictions on the amount of people that could be there. So it was it wasn’t a huge event, but it was a very very enjoyable and memorable day, wasn’t it?

Eloise: Yeah, it was. It was it was a really nice, small family occasion. And I think we definitely enjoyed it very much given especially given the difficult COVID restrictions and circumstances.

Lloyd: We’ve spoken about the losses that Owen endured, but recently you lost a loved one yourself.

Eloise: Very sadly, my own mom actually passed in a car accident earlier this year, end of January. It was obviously a massive shock to us all and it was definitely… obviously the months following that and this year’s probably been the most difficult period I would say of my life so far. But it’s definitely also been a period where I’ve leaned a lot more heavily into my faith and learned to to lean on God. And I think it’s a period of life where I’ve learned firsthand, I guess, the same as Owen, the peace and the healing that comes comes from God in these really difficult periods in your life. Following that, obviously, all the family is all spread over the globe. At the time, I was in Argentina. My younger sister was in Los Angeles, where she currently is living, my younger brother was at a wedding in Western Australia. So we all obviously had to quickly fly home and got there within a couple of days to attend the funeral and and sort out, you know, all the things that unfortunately go with these situations.
Lloyd: I certainly remember it and I was certainly sorry for the loss – a shock when we heard about it. Once you returned to Australia, how did the business and the church community support you through that?
Eloise: It was an incredible experience. It’s probably something I don’t think any of our family will ever forget in a hurry. As far as the business went, obviously at the time it just it barely featured. It wasn’t even a priority. But I remember my sister (obviously I mentioned my younger sister’s in the business with me), Owen and I were all in part of the leadership team. So, it was a large portion of the leadership team to disappear overnight, but we literally just texted the rest of the team. We’ve got several other extremely capable women on the team and said, ‘Look, sorry, we’re off. That’s it. I don’t know how long it will be but good luck’. They stepped up and took over with the help of our board who stepped in and helped them make difficult decisions, advised them, that kind of thing. But on a personal front, I remember within 2 hours I had over 500 messages from church members all over the globe, people that had been through similar things, people I knew, people didn’t know. Just incredible really the outpouring of support and love. And following that, obviously in the difficult days leading up to the the funeral and beyond, the family received gifts, you know, to help cover funeral expenses, flowers, all sorts of all sorts of things. And just, you know, even practical support, people dropping in to do the housework, help with the washing, all that kind of thing, help us set the house up too, as it was just obviously my dad and my brother left at home. Even since then, there’s been church members that have continued doing their washing for them every week, cooking the meals every week, that kind of thing. It’s just been absolutely incredible. I can’t imagine going through an experience like that without having the church behind me quite honestly.

Lloyd: And how did Owen support you through that difficult time you’ve just been through?
Eloise: Well, I think obviously the tragedy and sorrow that Owen’s been through throughout his life uniquely equipped him to to help me go through this experience. But I think the other thing is like obviously over the four years that we were married while while my mom was still with us, he developed a really a close relationship with my mom. So he was obviously suffering yet another loss at the time. But he was just extremely strong and supportive and really I guess using his past experience he helped me get through it and be able to see a light at the end of the tunnel and a way forward and and figure out how to cope with life again and get through that grief. I just feel extremely lucky to have had him as my husband and we definitely became much much closer than ever both in our faith and as husband and wife and friends throughout the experience, wouldn’t you say?

Owen: Yes, 100% correct.
Lloyd: Well, one thing you didn’t have to experience in Argentina was the false narrative that’s often peddled out here in the media that the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is a cult. How do you feel about that when you hear it?

Owen: Well, I’ve been very fortunate to grow up in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and it’s certainly not a cult. It’s a community that really cares for for those that within it. At the end of the day, church members are much the same as as those in the broader community. We share similar values and similar goals, too. We’re just people that want to get ahead in life and want to help others get ahead and overall just contribute to a better society.

Lloyd: And how do you feel about the way the church is portrayed?

Eloise: I mean I’m obviously aware of the portrayals that are out there, but from my personal experience I just feel that they’re unfair and and very wide of the mark. They definitely don’t represent the the community and the church that I’m a part of at all.
Lloyd: And one of the other misconceptions that’s out there, Owen, is that marriages amongst the Plymouth Brethren are pre-arranged. Is that what you experienced?

Owen: No, certainly not. Probably would have been a lot easier if it had been arranged for us. But I I chose who I wanted to marry. Eloise can speak for herself.

Eloise: No, I mean, it’s laughable. I can’t imagine anyone choosing to arrange a marriage with people from opposite corners of the globe. But no, I definitely chose who I married and I’m very happy in it.

Lloyd: And finally, Owen, I know you wanted to speak about the way that someone out here is negatively portrayed in the media. That’s Mr. Bruce Hales. How do those portrayals line up with the man that you’ve come to know?

Owen: Yeah, this is one of the things that hurts the most. It’s certainly not fair, it’s extremely unfair the way the media portrays him. The man that I know is a lovely man, very dear man. He’s very kind and caring and extremely compassionate. Just in my own experiences, you know since losing my family as a young child, he’s always been very very kind to me and shown a great great interest in me and in my situation. And I think he’s always been a very unselfish man putting others interests always before his own. I have great respect for him and and find it deeply upsetting the way that the media portray him.

Lloyd: Thank you so much both for sharing your stories. It’s been fascinating and you both suffered profound losses at early ages, and you’ve come through it with your with strength and faith. It’s certainly been inspiring to listen to those stories and thank you to everyone that’s been listening along. Certainly appreciate your company and we look forward to your company on the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. There has been a lot said about women in the Plymouth Brethren. Critics of the church claim that women are treated not much more than housewives and baby makers. Some sections of the media actually accuse the church of treating women like second class citizens. None of this is true, of course, but frustratingly, the myth still persists. That’s why I’m really looking forward to introducing today someone that’s intelligent, successful, and driven, a woman, and a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Her name is Eloise Holder. Thanks for joining, Eloise.

Eloise: Thanks, Lloyd. It’s good to be here. So, I guess a quick introduction about me. I’m 28 years old. I was born in a small town in South Australia, commonly known as a blue lake city. I’ve been living in Argentina in Buenos Aires for the for the last four years. I’ve just this week moved back across to Australia.

Lloyd: So what’s prompted the move back to Australia?

Eloise : I own a global business. It’s called Zembr. And I’ve just shifted back here for 6 to 12 months to work on a few big business projects, exciting projects that we’ve got coming up.

Lloyd: So you were born into the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Tell can you tell us a bit about your upbringing and family life?

Eloise: Yeah, sure. So, I guess we had a fairly modest upbringing. I was one of five children in a in a bigish family. I had two sisters and two brothers. Money definitely didn’t really grow on trees where I was from. I had a mother that had very old school values, I guess, brought us up well, but I think one of the overarching themes in our growing up lives was, you know, if you want it, you’ve got to work for it.

Lloyd: So, some of those old school values of around money is that where the entrepreneurial spirit comes from?

Eloise: Yes. My mother definitely had an entrepreneurial streak, and she was always working in throughout our growing up years when we’re younger, when we’re a bit older as well. Despite that she would often spend a lot of time with us kids when we were when we were smaller, doing different sorts of business make-believes or play.  I remember in school holidays she’d help us set up some kind of little activity. On one school holidays, we ran a car wash. I think it was called the freaky fries from memory. Another school holidays it was selling chocolates. And I remember later in my school years, I thought it was a good idea (and she encouraged this one but it probably didn’t turn out so well) to be breeding chickens. I found out the hard way that a dog can deplete the crop very quickly.

Lloyd: So some of those values did they carry across into your school life?

Eloise: Yeah, definitely. I think throughout my latter schooling years, high school years, I was definitely always very goal driven. I remember I was always sort of striving to get the highest score, probably a bit competitive. and I had a specific goal throughout my year 11 and 12 senior years to beat my older sister’s ATR score, which was 95.59 and to achieve state dux. So that was something that drove me a lot. And my teachers always… I had a specifically a unique history teacher, and he always used to laugh that I just scraped in. I got a 95.95. I did achieve both of those, but I think it’s something that set me up for my latter life in terms of, you know, always wanting to hit the next goal and be fairly competitive and goal driven.

Lloyd: So once you left and graduated high school, what did you do next?

Eloise: I worked a full-time local job. it was I think the first one was in estimating and admin. I moved around a little bit in the next few years. I did spend a bit of time in actually a bit of production management. I think one of my last jobs was in architectural product sales. I used to… I was I think I was 19 at the time …and my boss thought it would be a good challenge to send me up to the city which was, the big smoke for us in a little town, Adelaide… to do a presentation. So, I think a lot of those different experiences, I got a broad experience across all the different areas of business throughout those years in one way or another and definitely those challenges sort of gave me the experience and confidence probably that I needed for the next step in my career.

Lloyd: I think you said in about 2018 you told a friend about a business idea you had. Can you tell us about that moment and how it all grew from there?

Eloise: Yes. So, my job wasn’t going too well at the time, and I’d popped over the channel to New Zealand for a short vacation. And on that vacation, I actually I met up with somebody who was a virtual assistant. And at the time, it was a bit of a foreign concept. Really didn’t exactly know what that was. But a bit later in the trip, I’d sort of been thinking about it. I met up with a friend of mine who had a very entrepreneurial streak and we got chatting and I was sort of saying, “I’ve got this idea. I think I’d like to start a business. You know, this virtual assistant thing, it really has merit. Like, imagine, you know, if you could create a whole lot of part-time jobs for young people that they enjoy actually enjoy that are remote that don’t have to go up to the cities if they don’t want to. And also at the same time, you know, I’ve seen a lot of my mom and dad obviously had a business. I’ve seen a lot of small family businesses and, you know, that that need part-time support but maybe can’t afford full-time staff.
So, I thought like it’s just an obvious solution. Why is there not more of this? We chatted it through and yeah, they got a bit excited about, “oh, this could be great. you know, this could be huge, it could be global, you could have 40 staff, 50 staff”. [and I was thinking of] Just a job for me, maybe for my little sister when she comes out of school. That’s all. Anyway, as we chatted and like, okay, right, next step is um first five steps, we wrote it down on a servette first, pick a name, do a logo, create a pitch, etc. etc. And yeah, that very cliche movie style beginning was actually where it all started.

Lloyd: Very interesting. So 7 years on from the servette, what’s Zembr up to now?

Eloise: Well, the logo is exactly the same as we sketched it on the serviette that day, funnily enough. But we’re a virtual assistance agency now. Our services have levelled up over the years and we have a very strong focus on helping executives achieve more success in business with less stress. So, we do that through a few different services, executive assistants, bookkeeping, business development. The team is spread all over the globe. We’ve got team members in New Zealand, UK, Caribbean, Argentina, US. And there’s about 80 staff, 78 of which are women. Apologies to the two men on the team. So yeah, it’s been a bit of a hectic ride.

Lloyd: You said you envisioned working with your little sister. Did that part of it work out or…?

Eloise: Well, actually, funnily enough, over the seven years, I think five out of seven of my family members have been involved in Zembr’s journey um one way or another. My sisters have both played a really big role. My older sister, she joined at the start. She helped me really get things off the ground and my younger sister still works with us today in our leadership team. They are very opposite to what I am thankfully…for them. But I’ve always sort of been the visionary, idealistic one. I come up with a thousand bad ideas a week, they’re the ones that have always, you know, helped talk me off the ledge and say oh, this one’s good, that one’s not so good. And, you know, been my execution team, which I definitely don’t think I would have got to where we have today without them.
Lloyd: It sounds like you had a quite a bit of support from the family. What about the church community?
Eloise: Yeah, 100%. So, alongside my family, funnily enough, my first client actually was UBT. I cringe thinking back now. I sent my first ugly pitch document to the to the general manager of UBT from my Gmail address. I didn’t yet have a domain or anything like that. But they took a chance on me and gave me my first job actually. But I think most importantly from there earlier on I was advised you know to think big think as a big business from the start, even though it’s difficult, and to get myself a board of mentors people that I could refer to, that could train, help, coach. I just reached out to three random church members – one was from England, I think one was from New Zealand and one was from Australia and they all took a chance on a very naive 21-year-old that really had nothing to show. Over the next three years they gave me pro bono support. We’d meet every fortnight, every month, whatever I needed, for them to review the progress, hold us accountable, give me advice, you know, help me keep going through the difficult patches. I definitely would attribute a lot of Zembr’s success today to that advice and support.

Lloyd: I guess Covid impacted all of us one way or another. Did it impact your business?

Eloise: Yeah, it did actually. So basically overnight, well within a week, we lost 70% of our business. It was it was a massive hit. We had about 30 staff at the time so we couldn’t exactly just close doors but I guess we were a pretty easy cut for people that were cutting expenses. So our mentors advised us to pivot, you know, come up with some new ideas, take advantage of the opportunities that come with a challenge. As a team we got together and we actually created a series of what we called pandemic courses. We did a photography course, and I think there was a cooking course, and I can’t really remember what else… but really it had nothing to do with our original line of business. They generated enough revenue to get us through those difficult months and then from there we picked back up and we actually it was a bit of an opportunity, or a lucky streak, for us in the end because obviously the pandemic kind of forced the progression globally into remote working and so people adopted the virtual assistant idea a lot quicker than they perhaps otherwise would have. From there actually took off about 3, 4 months later and it’s been on the up ever since.

Lloyd: So your business has kind of taken you all over the world. What’s some of the most memorable parts of those travels?

Eloise: Well, I feel very blessed to have travelled quite a lot over the last seven years, which has definitely been because of the business. Been to many different locations. But I think probably I’d have to say the most memorable was a trip to Argentina or Buenos Aires in 2019, which is where I met my husband Owen.
Lloyd: So, we’re going to meet Owen on the next episode, but you ended up moving there, didn’t you, to Argentina?

Eloise: Yeah, I did. So, obviously the pandemic hit only six months after we met. So we we started a long-distance relationship shortly after that which obviously wasn’t terribly easy but in the end we sort of felt the pandemic, like everyone did, was going to go on forever. The borders were closed. We were anxiously checking the news every month, every week actually. So eventually we realized that the only way it was going to work was – you know, at that stage we were sort of planning to live together anyway – to just get on, get married, leave the country, get married over there and stay there for good. So  I went over there by myself and we had a small family wedding and started our lives together.

Lloyd: So you moved right over to the other side of the world. Did it help to have the church community when you got to Argentina?

Eloise: Absolutely. I I look back on those early days and I mean moving country for anyone is a big challenge. But I think moving to a more developing country, a country that speaks another language, you know, there’s just so many challenges that that that came with moving to Argentina, security challenges, different things.
And I think one of one of the biggest blessings in that move was that there was a church community of about 160 church members in Buenos Aires, and a lot of them over the years had moved to Argentina themselves and acclimatized and, you know, been through that process. So they fully understood what you were going through and the different phases it sort of took. And the support… like them stepping up and understanding and even just having that, you know, that base of English-speaking church members for the social interaction… it was just a huge help in in a time of a lot of mental strain.

Lloyd: Still even with all that support it must be a pretty difficult thing not only to move to a new country but to run a business in a country where you can’t speak the language.

Eloise: It was a huge undertaking. It definitely had its challenges. In fact, every day was a challenge for the first 6 to 12 months. I always like to say to people that ask about it that it’s kind of like going back to being a 5-year-old if you’ve been an independent person before that. You suddenly can’t order potatoes, you can’t go to the chemist, you can’t you can’t really do anything by yourself. You rely on people a lot. I remember early days, my first time out shopping by myself. I had researched all my words and I on my husband and thought, “I’ve got this, I can do it” and went out… got all the way through the shopping and got to the butcher section. I just wanted some chicken and all the words just fled, like chicken… I just need chicken! I think I ended up standing there and flapping my wings at him like a hen. I know the Argentinians are very kind people when it comes to language but he definitely had a quiet little giggle behind his hand at that one. But anyway, I got my chicken. I think those were some of the situations where the church really stepped up and helped me. Like in the early days, a year after I moved, I had a major back surgery. I was in hospital for 5 days. And if you haven’t been in a country where you don’t speak the language, you probably wouldn’t understand exactly the huge undertaking that is. But you suddenly you can’t understand what the doctor’s saying. You don’t know what you know what’s coming next. And there were church members that would just come and take turns sitting with me in the hospital, translating, looking after me.
And I remember when we got home as well, the house was just full of food, gifts, and we for two weeks thereafter, we had church members do us a meal train, I think um they called it, where every night someone else would be scheduled to bring us bring us a meal and help us out. But yes, it was it was a big challenge, but I think it was definitely kudos to the church members helping us get through it. And there’s a lot of very special connections and relationships we have with them from that time that we still have today.

Lloyd: Now that you’re established yourself in business I know that you’re very passionate about mentoring other young women. Why is that?

Eloise: I see a lot of young women today, older ones as well actually, but struggling to set goals and perhaps realize the potential that they have, what they could be doing with their lives, whether that’s you know career-wise, family-wise, financially. …I’ve worked with a lot of young women over the last seven years, obviously through Zembr, it’s exposed me to a lot. I find it really fulfilling and love to see these young women step up and take hold of their lives and set goals and move forward.

Lloyd: There’s a lot said about young women in the church that they’re not given any choice or control. How do you feel about that when you hear that said?

Eloise: I think the people saying this obviously they have their own perspective, but it’s definitely not what I know of the church. And I guess I always say, look, at the end of the day, it’s up to you to make what you want of your life. It’s no different within the church or outside. But if you want a career, just get on and work for it and make your own career. If you want to get married, get married. If you want to stay single, stay single. If you want babies, have babies. If you want it all, do it all. But yeah, it’s really up to you to make your own choices in life along with your family and figure out what you want out of life.

Lloyd: Well, you certainly overcome some challenges. What’s next on the horizon?

Eloise: Well, it’s going to be a busy 12 months. We are obviously here in Sydney now… we’re launching a new uh business operating system actually which is a bit of a been a bit of a passion project of mine for the last 18 months. It involves a lot of you know coaching and strategic work with businesses which is exciting. I am hoping to move into a bit of private property development. Aside from that, I don’t know really. Life tends to throw a few curve balls, so we’ll just roll with the punches and enjoy our time in Sydney while we’re here.

Lloyd: Well, thank you very much for joining us today. Your story is certainly inspiring and your energy. And thanks to all that have joined to listen. We appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd Grimshaw: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. I’m also occasionally the church’s spokesperson in the media. So, I get to see all the questions that journalists have about the church. And like the saying goes, sometimes they don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. This podcast is about putting all the facts on the table. In the first four episodes, we’re speaking with the four sons of our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. Thanks again for your time. Previously, the five of us have discussed what life is like in the church. Today, I’d like to talk to you about what it’s like when people leave it. How many people do leave the church and what are the main reasons?

Charles: We have a fellowship of about 55,000 churchgoers or members globally and thankfully it is rare that someone does choose to leave the church. If you look at the Sydney congregation where there’s approximately 900 people, there has been eight in the last decade that has left the church in this area and four of them were young and chose to leave the church to pursue a different lifestyle and the other four chose to leave their wives and therefore leave the fellowship. So thankfully it is rare that it happens.

Lloyd: So what happens to a person when they do leave the church, Dean?

Dean: We don’t cut them off. It comes down to the individual families. If they wish to stay in contact with them and they’re free to reach out if they get in a difficult position or they need some support or some help, they can absolutely reach out for support.

Lloyd: I think a lot of the confusion around the church is because of the language. Excommunication, shut up, confinement, withdrawn from. What does it mean to be confined or shut up?

Gareth: It takes you a fair bit fair process to actually get confined or shut up. Lloyd, it means you just keep going back to something wrong that’s not in accordance with our way of life and our values. But normally people get many, many chances. But find if it comes to the point where they just want to continue it, then we confine them. It doesn’t mean we confine them to a room. It just means they don’t actually go out to the meetings. But there’s a lot of support, a lot of care, a lot of help, a lot of support, people come around to try to help them. Probably 99% of people come from a confined or shut up position back into the church or the fellowship and then you know, the 1% that decide they don’t want our way of life, then they leave. But we don’t shut them out. We don’t ignore them. Yeah. Here we offer ongoing support and help.

Lloyd: So what happens when someone is finally excommunicated?

Gareth: It just means they no longer come to our churches or our meetings, gatherings. The family as such don’t shut them off or ignore them or treat them badly or look down on them. Obviously we keep to the truth of separation so that we wouldn’t eat or drink with them or socialize, but we’d be always there to lend a helping hand if ever a trouble arose.

Lloyd: So, can they ever come back to the church group?

Greg: Yeah, absolutely. And many have and we will welcome them back if they want to re-commit to our beliefs and practices.

Dean: In many situations, Lloyd, as Charles said, thankfully it’s rare. It’s sad when it happens but just like we see in the broader community in the broader world estrangement can come in between husband and wife and they go their separate ways which then you know results in separation and a divorce. Our focus and our mantra I guess is always reconciliation and making sure that husband and wife are mend their ways and get back together again. But sadly, there are situations that they decide to pursue an alternative pathway that’s separate to, different to the values that we hold true and that’s a choice that they make.

Lloyd: So, as you say, family arrangements come in for all sorts of reasons, whether religion’s involved or not. But do you think that happens more frequently in the church than other places, Gareth?

Gareth: It’s pretty rare, Lloyd. If you even look at divorce rates, I just Googled it this morning. In Australia, it’s 40%. Ours is less than 0.01%. So, that shows how much we hold family first. Good values, good principles, hold the family together. We’re very much family first and everything is centred on the family.

Lloyd: Some say that when they do leave the church, they are cut off from the family, Charles, and some even say they have their photos cut out of the family photo album. Can you comment on that?

Charles: I think we need to respect the individual families when choices like that are made. And I wouldn’t want to go into any detail of any you’d have to look at on a case-by case basis, but it’s not the church forcing that to happen. It’s particular families that may choose to have photos changed or retaken, but it’s not the church who forces that.

Lloyd: So when husband and wife are confined, are their children taken off them and placed with other families?

Dean: No, definitely not. Normally the children would go with the parents unless of course they are old enough and of age, you know, maybe over 16 or 18 and they decided to stay with the church. It’s absolutely an individual matter. There may have been some isolated incidents, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, where the church made a mistake, but that certainly wouldn’t be the case these days. I think most churches in Australia and indeed globally would look at some things that may have happened decades ago and say that if it occurred today, it would be definitely handled differently. And the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is in the same boat.

Lloyd: What about when people leave? Some of them have said they were fired from their jobs. Greg, is that mandatory? Does that normally happen?

Greg: I’m not sure of any case or not sure what you’re referring to, but what I would say is the church doesn’t own any businesses and doesn’t employ anyone. So, if someone has been fired, you’d have to go to the business owner and ask them. It’s hiring and firing is solely and wholly you know, the responsibility of the business owners.

Lloyd: Many ex-members have made allegations about mistreatment at the hands of the church and Gareth. Have you got any comment to make about that?

Gareth: Yeah, sadly that’s true, Lloyd. As Dean was saying, it’s more like sort of 25, 30, 40 years ago. But yeah, some were unfairly treated and put out wrongly and my heart goes out to them. I feel very sorry. We actually had like a review, I think it was in ’02 ’03 and a lot of matters were put right globally. We wrote letters and I know in Sydney my wife had two uncles, nice guys actually, one’s in real estate and yeah, they were put out wrongly. But they they’re happy with their position. In fact my grandpa, he passed away about 10 years ago and they’ve come to the burial. They were just happy that we we’re looking after their father and mother. But our heart goes out to people that have been mistreated and any mistakes we’ve made, we’ll acknowledge it. But I think our whole church has evolved like a lot of churches and a lot of foundations and we’ve moved with the times. We keep true to our values and principles, but we’re a lot more flexible and open to working situations out, would you say, Dean?

Dean: Absolutely.

Lloyd: So, where there’s been allegations of wrongdoing, what do we do to investigate those allegations, Dean?

Dean: So if a report comes to our attention obviously we’d follow that up and follow that through and if it needed to involve the authorities or external body then it would be followed through accordingly.

Lloyd: Are church members told that they should fear the outside world?

Charles: No but we do fear the system of the world as set up by Satan and as we look at the holy scriptures and we try to live in accordance with the Bible. The Lord himself said my kingdom is not of this world. So, we would fear what could happen to us or anybody that would get away from the system of protection and care that was set on by Christ when he was here.

Lloyd: We said that infidelity was a reason that some people leave the church. But what about sexuality? When people come out as gay, do they get excommunicated from the church? Gareth, no, they don’t get excommunicated for coming out gay and they finally have to decide what way of life they want. A lot of them actually just choose to stay within the fellowship. Others actually decide they want to pursue an alternative lifestyle. So they invariably would leave the church. But we don’t look down on them. We don’t treat them as second rate. Indeed, in our workplaces, we have worked with many members of the LGBTQ community and got on very well them, delivered projects, and had good relationships with them.

Lloyd: So the church does it forbid persons from having to do with family members that have come out as gay?

Gareth: No, they wouldn’t. The family would be free to interact with them and talk with them and speak with them. Obviously, we’d still practice the truth of separation.

Dean: But I guess that comes down to individual situations. Lloyd, the church doesn’t insist either way, but it comes down to the individual family. So there would be situations where someone may have come out gay, pursued an alternative lifestyle and left the church and if the family choose not to engage in continue contact with that sibling or that family member, then that’s their matter.

Charles: We obviously believe what it says and go by what it says in the Bible that marital relationships is between a man and a woman. And sometimes that may mean that members that want to pursue a different lifestyle to that will leave the church on by their own choice. When you speak of people from the LGBT community getting cut off, it’s not right and it’s not correct because for instance, an employee that we had, Gareth, that worked for us for many years, was part of that community. He remained as part of the church for probably 10 or 15 years. Then he chose to pursue another lifestyle and we keep in touch with him. His family keeps in touch with him. If at any time he is in need in any way, shape or form, whether it be physically, financially, mentally, he will call out for help and we are more than happy to sit down with him and help him out.

Gareth: He often rings up, Charles and just wants to chat about general life and we ask him how he is and yeah, does he need any further support or anything else? But no, we remain on as good friends with him.

Lloyd: Well, other churches seem to have been become more accepting over the years. Why hasn’t the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church?

Dean: Well, the church is evolving, maybe slower than mainstream churches, but I think we’ve been encouraged recently that the Pope, Catholic Pope has just affirmed to 1.4 billion Catholics worldwide, that the family is founded upon the stable union between a man and a woman. We certainly acknowledge that others can do and have other beliefs and views, but the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church believes everyone should be treated with care and compassion and respect.

Lloyd: So does the church practice gay conversion therapy?

All: Absolutely not.

Lloyd: Is there a lot of bullying amongst church members, particularly younger ones, for being different, Greg?

Greg: No, I don’t think so. Obviously like any community we would have bullying whether it’s at the school or in the playground but at on the whole, we celebrate the different personalities and characters and that’s really what makes our community interesting isn’t it?

Lloyd: Well that brings us to the end of our interview with the Hales brothers. We’ve covered some pretty tough topics in this episode in particular. But we do want to end on a positive note. So, I’d like to ask each of you, what is it that you really enjoy about being part of the church?

Dean: Yeah, it’s a good question, Lloyd. I think what binds us and holds us together is that we have a common bond of love and friendship. We love the Lord Jesus. We love God. We love our family. We love our community. We love one another. We see ourselves as going through this scene with a view to transitioning or moving on to heaven in the next life. And that’s really what holds and binds us together as we go through this scene.

Charles: I think the support network that we have amongst this church is a great thing to call upon. We all have stress, we all have sorrow, we all have sadness, but then to be able to draw upon those that are in the church for help at any time. And also to be able to go to the meetings at night and see them on a daily and weekly basis, I think brings a lot of happiness and a lot of joy to our lives. Would you say?

Dean: Absolutely. So when we get together, we have a great time together. Whether it’s in the church, whether it’s in our homes, where wherever we are, whatever environment we’re in, we get on very well. What would you say, Gareth?

Gareth: It’s good, Dean. It gives us peace in our lives, happiness, contentment, but it really gives us direction and focus in our lives and purpose, which is important.

Greg: I think it’s really the great sense of trust we have within the members of our church and the love amongst one another. And I’d like to say that over the years I’ve found friends in all the countries that the PBCC operated in. And we could realistically any one of the saints could ring any one of the 55,000 other ones if they were stuck or in distress and they could get help immediately.

Dean: And we’ve actually experienced that, haven’t we, on our travels over the last two decades. We’ve been privileged and favoured to go to a number of countries and we’ve stayed at homes and met people that we’ve never met before or never known. And you might be in a lounge room in a family home in the middle of Paris with 30 other members of the Plymouth Brethren. And there’s happy times, there’s joy, there’s experiences shared, and there’s that common bond of connection and togetherness that you just we haven’t experienced anywhere else.

Gareth: It’s very reconfirming and reassuring. When we travel overseas and to see people in France or Germany or America, they’re all living the same values, same principles, same family life that binds us together universally.

Charles: And all holding true to separation, which really is the backbone of our church.

Greg: And what keeps you in the church, Lloyd?

Lloyd: Well, I think some of the things you’ve covered certainly resonate with me. I guess first and foremost, it’s the privilege of being able to gather every week at the Lord’s Supper with persons like-minded Christians, persons who we know and trust and understand, and persons that we fellowship with. That certainly keeps us in the church. But we’re all trying to get through this life. We’ve all got families to look after. We’ve all got mortgages to pay off, businesses to run. We all have the sorrows and joys of life. But certainly being connected to the church, a brilliant support structure like you’ve been saying, and gives you a sense of being connected to something that’s bigger than yourself. You always get a sense of someone that’s there to cover your back and make you feel connected and grounded. So yeah, it’s a wonderful privilege to be in this fellowship.

Dean: So the community really gives its members confidence, gives them hope, and it really gives them a way forward for the future.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again, guys, and thanks again for anyone who’s tuned in. Be sure to check out the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. This is the next episode of our new podcast series, Behind the Plymouth Brethren, where we tackle common media questions and misconceptions about our church. In this episode, I’ll be covering a few topics: education, business, tax, and technology. And to help me do that, I’m once again joined by the four Hales brothers, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. So, first off, often in media reports about the church, the name Universal Business Team or UBT pops up. So, for people who don’t know, what is UBT? Dean?

Dean: UBT is a global consulting organization. It operates in 19 countries and was founded in 2009 as a result of the global financial crisis. It employs I think around 800 people of which around 400 are from the wider community. So 50% of its employees aren’t part of the church. And they provide a range of advisory, coaching, training packages to support businesses. And they also support in providing funding for one school and and education. And in more recent times, they’ve leveraged with a lot of global brands to be able to leverage group buying power on a range of products and services for businesses globally.

Lloyd: So, who oversees the UBT? Is it the Hales or is it the church?

Dean: No, the Hales family definitely don’t run UBT and nor does the church. It’s a completely separate organization from the Plymouth Brethren. You’d need to ask that question of the UBT management and board. But what I can tell you is that UBT has played a phenomenal role over the last 16 years in supporting over 3,000 family businesses across the globe, both small, medium, and large, and really has been a key enabler of prosperity both in business and in life.

Charles: Every one of us would have benefited from the collaboration across UBT and providing them providing a platform to meet other you know business owners and intelligent businesspeople.

Gareth: Definitely.

Dean: Absolutely. I mean for my own situation back in 2012 fell on tough times and half of our business disappeared overnight and if it wasn’t for UBT support and UBT advisers, you know, I don’t think we’d be in business today.

Lloyd: Church critics say that the UBT is used as to funnel money to the church in some sort of money laundering scheme. You know, quite an accusation. So, have businesses or our charitable organizations been specifically set up to dodge tax, Gareth?
Gareth: No, not at all. No, we absolutely believe in paying tax. It’s what makes Australia great. It’s what makes any country great because it really funds essential services like health and education and transport and roads, bridges, gas, water, the list goes on. So any forward thinking prosperous country relies on taxpayers’ money. My father was actually a company auditor and a tax accountant. So from day one he was always adamant we that we pay tax. One little story comes to mind. He said he got a call from his father at John Hales about 50 years ago and he said “I want you to write three things down, Bruce and one was total integrity with the tax office. The second thing was to do the best by your clients. And the third thing was if you make a little bit of money on the way, that’s by the way.” But I thought that was three good programs to go by. But yeah, we thousand per cemt believe in paying tax.

Charles: Yeah, there’s been a myth for decades that we don’t pay tax and it’s honestly laughable.

Dean: Yeah, I was just going to say we’ve had a lot of wider community employees join our business that have seen the narrative and the headlines around avoiding tax. And it’s far from the truth. And just to echo what Gareth said, I think it’s been since we all entered into business a cardinal non-negotiable principle that we’ve been brought up on that you pay your tax and you pay your tax on time.

Gareth: A lot of our clients are Fortune 500 companies and they like to look at our actual financials so we can’t have anything dodgy going on dealing with those sorts of companies. Yeah.
Lloyd: Well, the church is aligned with a charity. One of them is called the Rapid Relief Team or the RRT. And for those that don’t know what the RRT is, Greg, can you tell us what it is?

Greg: Yeah, the Rapid Relief Team was established for the care and compassion of the community. It mainly helps charities and frontline services in times of need. So for instance, a lot of disaster relief or preparing for disasters. Across the globe we’ve helped after major hurricanes in the US and here in flooding in New South Wales and Queensland and and helped in fires all around the globe as well. There’d be many firefighters and nurses that would know us and attest to the good work the RRT has done.
Lloyd: So do church members use the RRT as some sort of tax break?

Greg: No, not at all. I’ve actually volunteered for the RRT. Me and Dean packed about 6,000 sandbags out at Windsor on a wet Monday night, but it’s not the only charity we support. For myself, I also support the Surf Life Saving and Red Cross and many others.

Dean: It’s a remarkable organization, Lloyd, operating in 19 countries, but not only the countries and the locations in which the Plymouth Brethren are based.
And there’s been extensive contribution like truckloads of food to those affected in Ukraine through this terrible, horrific war that we’re seeing play out over the last few years and it’s very much valued by frontline organizations in over 25 countries.

Gareth: Yeah, even the LA fires Lloyd the RRT had a significant impact on that and the local fireies and police officers were so pumped that our guys could get food and drinks right to the actual scene where the fires were. They said all the other sort of charity organizations couldn’t do what the RRT did. So they were pumped up there. The firies and the police guys, they loved love the service. Yeah.

Dean: And I think it speaks to our whole ethos and mantra as a church for care and compassion and respect for all mankind because the personal sacrifice that business owners within the Plymouth Brethren and their employees put in to support RRT is remarkable. So you just take recently those terrible floods in Texas where there was those young children that drowned. We had RRT support people on the front line there for 3 weeks straight. So, they took time out of their businesses to be able to be down there and support those frontline workers to try and retrieve, you know, people that were affected from those floods. And if you look at the only locality or subdivision where the Plymouth Brethren operates in Texas is in a place called San Antonio, which you’d be familiar with, Lloyd, and I think we only have about 150 members there. We had close on 50 members of our church down there on the front line for over 3 weeks supporting that cause.

Lloyd: So along with the myth that Plymouth Brethren members don’t pay tax, there’s a widely held belief that members of the church are disproportionately wealthy and a whole lot of us run multi-million dollar businesses. Is that the case, Charles? Or you got to comment on that?

Charles: No, it’s not the case. There are a large number of successful businesses, but along with that, there’s a large number of unsuccessful businesses. We look at our own businesses over the years and we’ve all fell on tough times at different times in our career. You know I can picture times in UniSpace when me and Gareth were around where we had to go back out to get more debt on our houses in order to get through a particular year. So I think to say that we’re disproportionately wealthy is a bit over the top.

Lloyd: There’s been multiple newspaper stories about the various homes bought and sold by the Hales family over the years. So, I’m wondering, Dean, what’s it feel like to be a Sydney real estate celebrity?
Dean: Yeah, it’s an interesting one, Lloyd. I think I’d make three points on that, I guess. Firstly, if we’re celebrities, Sydney definitely needs to find some better ones. Number two, it’s obviously clearly apparent that Sydney has an obsession with real estate. We definitely know that that’s alive and well, but we live in pretty average suburbs like Eastwood and Epping, not suburbs like Double Bay and Dover Heights. And I guess thirdly, I live in a pretty ordinary house. It’s these two guys that got the big ones.

Lloyd: So, seriously, there are some large homes. Is there a reason for that or?

Charles: Well, if you look at the way in which we live our lifestyles, the house that I’m currently I’m building at the moment behind Gareth, a much bigger house than I’m in now, but the house that I’m in now, I’ll pick out two different times when we entertain or socialize with the community or the people within our church. One is when we have them in for a lunch or a dinner, and sometimes we could entertain up to 40 or 50 people. Now, I just can’t physically do that at my house, but I would love to have the opportunity to do that at my house in the future. The second is we often have what we refer to as special meetings where people gather together in the church from all over the world. And it’s an awesome experience to be able to have couples and young kids and older people staying in our house for three or four nights at a time, and exposing our children to that those kind of difference, cultural differences. But at the moment in my house, I don’t have the rooms to do that. So at my new house, I’ll have an extra three spare rooms so that I can cater for those people when they come.

Dean: I think that’s a really important point, Lloyd, because family is at the heart of everything we do as a church and as a community. And generally speaking, when we have large church events or Bible readings, which we have on a global basis, and there’d be a number of people that would travel to those events, and they would be billeted out, if you will, and assigned to different people that that would accommodate them in their home. So rather than staying in a hotel and then getting on a bus and going to the church event or the Bible meeting, they would stay in their home. So we put a big emphasis on making sure that we’ve got  homes that can accommodate people and take care of them because that’s kind of where all the socializing happens after the church events back in our homes.

Greg: And we wouldn’t actually know everyone. I mean, we can’t don’t know 55,000 people, but it’s a chance for us to accommodate them and meet new faces and new people and learn about their lives.

Gareth: Just looking after people and giving them a good times. You got to have a good lounge. We like to sit up at the dining room table and good family room then a good alfresco. We like our barbecues and I got a good little fire pit down the back. Lloyd, you’re welcome to join me.

Dean: Gareth is a bit of a fire bug.

Gareth: If I don’t have family and friends, I get the fire on bit of country music and then a wee jack and coke.

Dean: You definitely know and Gareth had a good fire pit because he generally gives us an update on the brothers’ chat whether the Wallbies have just won in Johannesburg or the Tigers have managed to pull off a rare win with the NRL.

Gareth: Yeah. Well, that win the box was was quite remarkable, wasn’t it, boys? If we can say that. We felt pretty good.

Dean: Very encouraging. Certainly hoping for a backup performance this weekend.

Gareth: I reckon Joe Smith’s got to stay on a bit longer, but anyway, I’ve got a plan for that.

Charles: Yeah, that’s good. You can let us know later after the podcast. No, that was a big win. Really big win.

Gareth: We love the Bockies though. We love the South African guys.
A lot of them in the community. They moved out in ‘99 because it’s a bit of a rough country, but I love their spirit. They’re sort of rugged. good sense of humor.

Dean: So, I think that’s a good segue, Gareth. Once again, talking about care and compassion because as you say I think we had some circa 1200 Plymouth Brethren members in South Africa and we actually had one that was fatally shot by a gangster that tried to break into his house or car actually in his car and he was shot by outside his workplace, I think it was, and as a result of that some of the elders were concerned for the safety and so there was a mass migration so we have a lot of South Africans that moved to Australia and UK and New Zealand and they form an integral part of our community.

Charles: They love their rugby too. Yeah, they do.

Dean: And they’re still very loyal to their mother country, South Africa, when it comes to playing rugby.

Gareth: Yeah, they’re number one in the world for a reason, aren’t they? Yeah.

Lloyd: As well as ending up in the real estate pages of the newspaper. We sometimes end up in the education section as well. And I’ve seen a lot of questions come through about how brethren are educated, including where the kids go to school, whether they can go to university or whether they’re all homeschooled.
In the first episode, we touched on where you all went to school or some of you went to school. What about these days? Where where do the kids go to school?

Charles: The kids through from kindergarten through to year three typically go to local government schools and then one school global is then an option for them from year 3 through to year 12. So I would say a large majority of the children within the community would go to One School Global, but not 100%.
Lloyd: You talk about One School Global, are they schools that are controlled by the church?

Charles: No, they’re not controlled by the church. They’re an independent organization with their own independent board. What’s interesting is that a large number of the teachers and their staff would be from outside the community. In fact, what I can say is 100% of the teachers, not just the staff, but the teachers are actually from outside the community. because OneSchool Global doesn’t teach religion at the school. It prefers that the children are taught in the churches and at their homes. Any specific obviously questions about how OSG operates, you’re welcome to talk to, maybe you can get one of the board members or one of the managing directors of the school on a future podcast, but it’s not controlled by the by the church.

Lloyd: So when Brethren students do finish year 12, Gareth, why aren’t they allowed to go on to university?

Gareth: There’s nothing wrong Lloyd again against the actual university courses as such. It’s just the campus life and the party life is not really conducive to our values and our way of life. Yeah, obviously they’re allowed to do online courses. So we often we always encourage them to do post-graduate studies. My two boys did post-graduate studies for accounting and finance and indeed everyone that we employ like 80 per cent of our team workforce has actually gone through university such as lawyers, engineers, you know, tradespeople. So we have total respect. It’s not that we look down on or think we’re superior. It’s more just from a moral point of view. We’re trying to protect our young people.

Dean: In summary, we would probably say that campus life wouldn’t be conducive with the maintaining separation.

Charles: But again, we don’t force our children not to do post-graduate studies.

Greg: Absolutely not. In fact, we encourage it. And I’ve had probably 15 school levers over the last 5 years. And I would say 70 per cent of them took up either a one year or three year course and we allowed them to do that whilst working. So it gives them a bit of a head start so they can get into the workforce as well as having that secondary training.
Dean: We like to say, don’t we, earn while you learn. And I guess another point on that Lloyd is that a number of our graduates that come out of school often pursue a trade as well. So we’ve still got you know builders and metal workers and welders that are amongst the community. Their vocation is very much empowered to them as to what pathway they decide to choose.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again for your time. We’ll hear more from you in the next episode and thanks to everyone who’s taken the time to tune in. Keep an eye out for our next episode next week.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. This is the next episode of our new podcast series, Behind the Plymouth Brethren. Previous episodes can be found on our website and social channels. In the first four episodes of this podcast, I’m speaking with the four sons of our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales. I’ve been asking Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles some of the questions that our church frequently receives from the media or on social media channels. In this episode, we’ll kick off a conversation about two of the topics that come up most often: the role of women and men in the church as well as food and drink. In later episodes, we’ll put some of these same questions to women, younger parishioners, and older parishioners so that we can provide a full picture of the life of our church. Gentlemen, thanks again for joining me. Some of the journalists have said that women in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church are treated as second-class citizens. What’s your response to that, Gareth?

Gareth: Yeah, well Lloyd, uh, I believe women are highly regarded, highly respected in our church. very happy, active, fulfilling lives. They have a total say on whether they work full-time or part-time or just be stay at home moms. So, they have total freedom of choice. Like all women, when they get together, the life of the party, they’d like to have a laugh and a chat and bit of a joke. We certainly enjoy their company. Like all women, they have their own social network group, so they catch up for coffee, just a talk or a group chat. If I was to describe the women in our church, I’d say they’re they’re happy, they’re energetic, they’re creative, they’re fun, they’re out of the box thinkers. They’re really like the backbone of the church.

Charles: I personally think it’s awful what the journalists say about our women and hopefully given the opportunity to speak up, they will. But you touched on the on the matter of choice. I think that is a true and fair word of the women in our church. They have a choice. They can choose to work. They can choose not to work.

Lloyd: Well, so far on the on the podcast, we’ve obviously heard from four men – or five men and no women an we know what that looks like. There are a couple of Hales sisters. Why aren’t they here today?

Dean: We did actually ask Lloyd, our two sisters, older sisters at that, Jane and Karen, to come along today, but they told us to go jump.

Gareth: But trouble is, if Jane was here, she’d take over the whole thing.

Dean: She would definitely dominate. Big sister Jane. But in all seriousness, Lloyd, we do hope that many persons will come forward from the church and participate in a podcast. Uh both men and women, young and old.

Lloyd: Yeah. Well, not to give anything away too early in the season, but we do hope to interview a whole range of other persons, men and women, young and old, in coming episodes. So, back to the questions. Gareth, is it true that women of the church have to quit work after marriage?

Gareth: No, they don’t, Lloyd. They can continue to work and keep their job if they so wish. It’s complete freedom of choice as we touched on earlier.

Greg: Yeah. I’d like to say that our CFO has been four women from the church for the last 15 years and all of them after getting married chose to come back to work, which we’re really grateful for. Then they helped transition the position for the next person. They’ve been very successful at it and they hold very important roles in our business.

Lloyd: So why is it that women sit at the back during our church services?

Charles: I think there’s a number of reasons why the women sit at the back of the church, but let’s bear in mind they don’t always sit at the back of the church. So in the church that we go to at Ermington, our main Sydney church, there’s a lot of brothers as we call them or men and boys that sit behind the sisters. So it’s not entirely true. What we do find though is the children kind of zero to four or five would typically sit with their mothers if they’re young and they’re quite noisy. And the people that are, not all the contributions, but a large proportion of the contributions come from the front of the church. So typically, a lot of the women folk with their young kids would sit near the doors so that the kids are coming in and out all meeting it. If you can picture it, it’d be pretty disruptive if they’re all sitting in the front row with a bunch of, you know, one- to three-year-olds.

Dean: But I don’t think it’s dissimilar to a number of other churches, Lloyd, the Jews and other denominations where women don’t sit in the front of the church. I think it really reflects the role that they do play and as Gareth said it is indeed pivotal and represents the backbone of the church. If you take the Lord’s supper for instance where we gather together every Sunday morning, the women actually lead us through the different phases of the service of God and give out all the hymns and they essentially indicate when we move on to the next phase.

Gareth: They actually start it and then actually end it as well, don’t they?

Dean: Absolutely.

Lloyd: So, the wedding vows as we practice them, do the women in Plymouth Brethren wedding vows, do they have to vow in their vow that they’ll submit to men?

All: No, not at all. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Greg: Our vows have actually changed over the years. They were different uh for me compared to 20 years prior. But nowhere has it ever said that. It’s complete falsehood.

Dean: My wife definitely wouldn’t have married me if that was the case.

Gareth: My wife doesn’t submit very much to me.
It’s more like I’m submitting to her, which is fair enough.

Lloyd: There’s been some media reports that workplaces uh that are owned by members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, they have a misogynistic culture. Is there any truth to those reports?

Gareth: No, far from the truth, Lloyd. We have a real winning culture at our businesses. In our previous business, UniSpace, we had a winning culture. There was no politics. There was no red tape. People love the fact we embraced all walks of life. Our values are fearless, energetic, courageous, humble, loyal, but we got the best of the best talent.
We got excellent designers, project managers, all working together. The fact they came with us to us was because of our winning culture. We paid them good.
We almost had like a triple win sort of methodology. It was our clients would win, our employees would win, and we would win as well. So, I know it was a very good culture, but Charles, you could speak to that.

Charles: Oh, we were in the construction industry, as you know, which was very male-dominated right across the industry, and there were a lot of the big builders that got together to try and improve the ratios of women to men. And at UniSpace, our percentages of women to men were well and truly among the highest in the industry. And we made conscious decisions back at UniSpace to promote more women into leadership because that was something that we wanted to change in the industry. So we played a pivotal part in that. So to suggest that our cultures within the community are misogynistic is ridiculous.

Dean: Utterly false, Lloyd. And I think in my business in the ox business, our ratio globally at the moment is bang on 50% women and 50% men. And I think diversity and inclusion and equal opportunity for men and women within our businesses for their careers and their future livelihoods is very much a scent and pivotal and front and focus of our community businesses.

Lloyd: What about when it comes to uh cooking and cleaning? Dean, do the women have to do all of that?

Dean: Definitely not. I can uh cook a mean barbecue. I’ll have to invite you along someday. And uh no, as far as cleaning up after, it’s definitely a shared job. Happy life, happy wife.

Gareth: I’m always cleaning up. Dean, me and Katrina both like a good clean house. So if she doesn’t do it, I do it. It’s a very much a joint venture.

Charles: Yeah. I mean, there’s so much to do of an evening. Not only cleaning up, looking after the kids. It’s not a planned thing. You do Mondays, I do Wednesdays. It’s whatever’s happening at the time. But we all definitely all do our bit. That’s why that’s why I’m still married anyway.

Lloyd: Well, staying on the subject of meals, why wouldn’t you or another member of the church have a meal or a drink with someone outside the church?

Gareth: It’s just the truth of separation. We don’t eat or drink with those that partake of the Lord’s supper. We regard that as communion. So, it’s just a simple rule that we follow. It’s not that we look down on other people or think we’re superior. That’s just a rule of separation that we’ve always gone by.

Lloyd: Is there specific things that you we can and can’t eat when we’re on the subject of meals?

Gareth: Nah you can eat whatever you want. Yeah.
Dean: We obviously respect that in other religions there’s foods that they don’t eat. So, lots of lots of people from other religions have different eating requirements. Some eat shellfish, some don’t eat shellfish or pork, some don’t eat on Good Friday, others don’t eat during Ramadan. The Plymouth Brethren simply don’t eat with persons that we don’t partake of holy communion on a Lord’s Day which is Sunday. So that is we gather together every Sunday morning for the Lord’s supper and partake of the assembly emblems and those that don’t participate in that are persons that we don’t eat or drink with.

Lloyd: Every now and again the media asks us about campus and co which was a supermarket, small supermarkets, that were run by members of the church. Why do the brethren own their own supermarkets?

Dean: Yeah, it’s a good question, Lloyd. Camps and Co. was initially set up to provide additional funding for OneSchool and for the education of our children. But that’s not the only place we shop at. Speaking for my wife and I in our family, we’d go to Woolworths, Coles, and uh never shy away from a good deal at Aldi. But recently I’ve heard that the management of Campus and Co have decided to close down all the stores globally. I think it was a financial decision. It wasn’t sustainable and it was also a significant load on volunteers but they’re moving and transitioning to a full online e-commerce model.

Greg: I don’t know if we need a sponsor at all, Lloyd, for our podcast, but I’d like to give a good shout out to Costco. Very much enjoy their meat.

Gareth: You get paid for that, do you, Greg?

Greg: We’ll see.

Dean: You’ve just got to pay a membership to Costco and if you get there late, you it takes you 45 minutes to get your trolley and get in there.

Greg: Yeah, they now do online as well.

Dean: Oh, do they? Okay. But they certainly have a phenomenal variety.

Charles: The other thing to do is just to set up chat with your in-laws and my dad-in-law goes to Costco every Monday night and does it for us.

Dean: That’s a good network you got.

Charles: That’s amazing, Charles. I’m seriously impressed.

Lloyd: Obviously, some people amongst the church enjoy a wine or a beer from time to time, but there’s some online comment commentators that say that the uh church takes it too far. Do you think there’s a a strong drinking culture in the church?

Charles: I don’t. But sadly, alcohol and drugs is a problem right across the world, the communities in the world. And I would say that the PBCC are no different. We have our challenges. In fact, we do a lot where we can to help people to go to rehab or get off, you know, substance abuse. I think the other key point is even through the OSG schooling system and the PBBC itself spends a lot of money and time and effort to try and educate the young ones as to the danger of substance abuse and makes them aware of habits or things that they may fall into in their youth so that we can hopefully save them from those issues later on in life.

Gareth: I’d say like society’s evolved, Lloyd, like 25 years ago, maybe we did drink a little bit more, but everyone’s talking about drink wisely, drink moderately.
Everyone’s worried about their fitness, their health. A lot of my good friends don’t drink at all. We still have a great time, get on well. So I, as Charles says, if there are some isolated people that have a problem, we would just recommend them to go to AA or a doctor or health clinic or St. John of God. But yeah, what do you say?

Dean: Yeah, I think as you say, we’ve seen in the broader world emerging trends and a change in health and wellness and PBCC members are not dissimilar to that.
People are very much embracing their health and wellness journeys and looking at alternative ways uh to make sure that they stay in good shape and stay fit and healthy.

Charles: Yeah. And you touched on it earlier about what drives us apart from just religious beliefs. And we spoke about achievement and trying to succeed and that that I would say would be right across the church. And obviously getting involved with alcohol and drug abuse is over against being successful. So we would recommend that our members understand what it is to have a strategy to get through the day, get through the week, and make sure that they’re performing at their best.

Dean: But we’ve all had experience of supporting people that have come into struggles with alcohol and substance abuse and we’re always directing them to get the best medical and professional and mental health that they can possibly get to make sure that they they live the quality and fulfilling lives that they deserve.

Gareth: Totally agree.

Lloyd: Well, is there anything else you’d like to mention that we haven’t touched on?

All: No, it’s been good, Lloyd.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again for your time, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. Really appreciate it. And thanks to everyone who’s listened or watching. Make sure to follow and subscribe so that you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. You may know my church as the exclusive Brethren, but that’s not the name we use. From time to time, it’s my job to step in and answer the questions that the media asks of our church. Some of them are reasonable, some are not, and some frankly border on conspiracy theory or even religious discrimination. And while we answer all the questions that we receive, we don’t always get a fair run in the media or on social media. So to tell you what life is really like in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, we’re launching a podcast series Behind the Plymouth Brethren, and this is episode one.During this podcast, I’ll be asking the men and women of the church some of the more common questions that we get from the media and on social media. Some of them may seem tough and we’ll touch on uncomfortable topics, but we think it’s important to get the facts out and on the table. There are two things that we’ll be covering off in this first episode. Firstly, we’ll talk about what’s become a hot topic, the involvement of many members of our church in the 2025 Australian federal election. At the outset, let me make a few points on that. The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is comprised of autonomous individual congregations rather than being one formal structure. And each of those has individual parishioners who choose to come together to worship.Some of them are recognized as elders, but there’s no ordained clergy and no official positions and no formal hierarchy. What that means is that any individual in the church can reflect on their own experiences and views, but they don’t speak on behalf of the church as a whole. Another point is that there’s many people in our church who have strong political views and many more participate in elections and vote these days compared to days gone by. But there’s a big difference a big difference between being politically aware, interested and involved and being part of the apparatus of any political party. Many of our members are the former. None are the latter. The second thing we’ll be covering off in this first episode is the Hales family, many of whom themselves have some pretty strong views on politics and society in general. A lot’s been said in the media and online about our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales. Much of it’s either untrue or exaggerated. So, for the first few episodes of this series, we’ll be hearing from some of the people who know him best, his four sons, and I’ll be asking them about their lives now and growing up. Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles, thanks for being the first guests on what we hope will be an ongoing series featuring many other members of the church. So, why don’t we start with a few introductions? Gareth.

Gareth: Thanks, Lloyd. I’m Gareth. I’m one of six children. I’ve got two older sisters, Jane and Karen, and three younger brothers who are with me on the podcast here today. I’m 47 years of age. I’ve been married for 27 years. Got a wife and four kids, two boys, two girls. I got a few small businesses that I work in and do a bit for the community, bit for charity, look after dad and mom, and yeah, just a regular knockabout dad who’s trying to get a few wins on the board. Very passionate to talk to you Lloyd today just to unpack the mystery about the Plymouth Brethren. We started about 200 years ago. Started in Plymouth, hence the name Plymouth Brethren. Uh started by J&D John Nelson Derby and I think it’s about 55,000 members in bit over 16 countries. So we’re pretty small on the global scale. We’re pretty well mainstream Christianity. We go by the principles that are set out in the Bible. What makes us a little bit different from say the Anglicans or the Plymouth, sorry, the Anglican uh the Anglicans or the Catholics is the truth of separation. We don’t eat or drink with those that don’t take of the Lord’s supper. So, we regard that as communion or fellowship.

Lloyd: Thanks, Dean.

Dean: Yeah, thanks Lloyd. Um 43 years of age, been married for 21 years to my wife Nery, a grateful father of two daughters, 19 and six. Family’s at the centre of my life and I guess my days are filled with sitting on a few boards, few business investments that I’m involved in. Um, taking care of my elderly parents and get involved in bit of charitable work.

Greg: Yeah, I’m Greg. I’m 40 years old. Been married for 15 years to my wife and have two children. Um, I’m self-employed in the construction industry, so spend most of my days working in the business and uh spare time helping other small businesses around the country. Thanks, Charles.

Charles: My name’s Charles. Uh, 35 years of age, been married for about 12 years now. A wife and three children, a boy and two girls, 10, seven, and four. Keep me pretty busy. Um, I’m the baby of the family. So, the youngest of the four brothers here. I spent about 10 or 11 years in business with Gareth when we built up a business and sold it about 5 years ago. So, the past 5 years, I’ve been spending a lot more time with the family, less in business, and just trying to do my bit in the community. I got a couple of small shareholdings in smaller businesses and just try and sit on a few boards and try and help people out and obviously spend a lot of time with mom and dad as I get older and do what I can to support.

Lloyd: Very good. Well, thanks for the introductions. Wanted to start off uh with asking you what it was like for you growing up, Dean.

Dean: Yeah, my childhood was full of many experiences and connections really shaped through family outings, church gatherings, meeting a lot of different and varied people that shaped my world. It was for fun and rewarding, challenging at times, um, but certainly, you know, a life that was, um, interesting and filled with lasting memories.Lloyd: Was being part of the Plymouth Brethren a big part of your childhood, Greg? Greg: Well, obviously I attended church regularly, but really most of my childhood was made up of attending school and then after school activities. From kindergarten to year 7, year 6, All my friends were non-members of the church. Played a lot of sport with them and after school rode my bike as all kids did and went down to the park and played footy with the young boys around from the community.

Lloyd: What about schools? What school did you go to?

Charles: I went to Eastwood Public School, which is just a local government school down the road from kindergarten through to year six. I think some of the brothers also went there. Then I went to one school global from year 7 to year 12. Funny enough, my children still um attend Eastwood Public School. So, I still live in the same area and funny, I was there the other day, noticed one of the teachers, just one left, is still there from when I was around. But yeah, most of my mates from those younger years were from outside the community. One of my best mates, an Indian from up the road, his parents still live there, funny enough. The other day I was with Henry and I an unidentified flying object from our house went over there. It’s not exactly the neighbour right door. It’s like three or four doors back. And I took him around there, Henry, around to meet them to ask if they could find this object on the roof or wherever it was. He was really kind. He came to the front door. They’re fairly old now. They’re probably in their early 70s, late 60s. And I introduced them to Henry and they were laughing with him and explained they knew me from back when I was his age.

Lloyd: And growing up, Gareth, did you have friends outside the church?

Gareth: Yeah, I did. Lloyd, I had a lot of friends outside of the church. I grew up born and bred in Concord, and moved when I was about five to Beecroft, spent about 5 years there. Then moved to Eastwood when I was about 10. I had a lot of friends around the neighbourhood. I was into skateboarding a bit. So, I built this quarter pipe and I had Mikey over the back and a few mates up around the corner. Tony Hawk was the GOAT at the time. So we used to try and do a few airs but mostly ended up face planting in the bushes. But no, we had a good time. I made some good connections at Marsden High School. I went there for 4 years. Highlight was probably 93. Won the rugby union cup. We actually beat a Malvina High, they had a pretty good team, had a lot of big Pacific Islander boys. They were pretty hard to cut down, but we had a really good captain. He actually went on to represent Scotland. He ended up playing in France, I think, for too long. I actually caught up with him three or four years ago. Had a good chat, good yarn about just the old days and what we’ve been doing for the last 30 years. But yeah, I’ve been in the construction industry, Lloyd, for sort of over 30 years. And as all my brothers would have, we’ve got a lot of connections with tradies and sparkies and chippies and architects, designers. Every time we catch up, they sort of they understand us. We understand them. We have a good chat and yarn about anything and everything.

Charles: Have you met up with Mike out of interest since those days? The skateboarding?

Gareth: No, I wouldn’t have met Mike since I got married. Probably.

Charles: I was telling the story before about that UFO, the object that flew over. I met there. I went there first and I knocked on the door and I met Mike’s dad and he knew me straight away because he still lives there. You know, then he said, “I’ll introduce you to my grandson”. Mike’s got a son. He’s probably mid 20s and he came out and I never knew he existed. And I shook his hand and laughed that his dad used to skateboard with my old brother. So, it’s funny how things go on.Gareth: yeah his parents went to Vietnam War. I think the the dad did. Yeah. Yeah. Nice guy.

Lloyd: We often get asked as to whether marriages in the Plymouth Brethren are pre-arranged and you’ve all said you’re all married, all four of you. So, how did you meet your wives?

Dean: Yeah, definitely not pre-arranged, Lloyd. I had a few short lived romances in my early years, but I met Nerolie, my wife at Dubbo of all places in year 10 where we did distance education and had a bit of contact with her through year 11, year 12. We were in the same chemistry class and the chemistry was good. We connected well and then when I left school 5 years later got married in 2004.

Lloyd: So when you’re not working or at church Greg what keeps you occupied?Greg: Yeah well a lot of times obviously looking after the family keeping wife happy and looking after my elderly parents. Try and do to a bit of fitness each day whether that’s strength training or just going for a walk or play the odd game of tennis. And I suppose on the weekends we tend to socialize with either family or friends. We might go around to their houses and have a meal, or they might come to our house. And I suppose on in the summertime we sort of tend to get into a bit of swimming and fishing and out in boats.

Lloyd: There’s a lot of curiosity in the media about Mr. Bruce Hales, your dad. How would you describe him?

Dean: Yeah, dad’s always been there. He’s been a good father. He’s been almost a brother at times. Been a friend, someone that you can call on when times are tough or you’re experiencing challenges to give you a fresh perspective. He has a great sense of humor and no matter what the situation is, if he’s ever got to put something right or he’s offended someone, he’s certainly someone that’s been marked by humility. But yeah, he’s been someone that has been there for the ups and downs and the in-betweens. His kindness and compassion is off the charts to be honest. And I think he’s tried to teach us that, and you guys would know, but it doesn’t matter who the individual is that he comes across no matter what background, what circumstances they’re found in, he seeks to understand their problems and to provide some solution. What would you say?

Gareth: He’s very kind, very caring. A lot of people don’t understand him. He’s a little bit of a mystery about him. But a lot of people would think that a church leader would be really aloof from the mainstream people, but he’s not anything like that. He gets down to everyone’s level, down to young people, middle-aged people, older people, caring for them, protecting them, setting them up. But if I was to describe my father, as Dean said, he’s a good dad, a good friend, great personality, excellent sense of humour. But what attracts me to him is he doesn’t really think anything of himself. He always takes low ground. I was a bit of a difficult boy to bring up. Probably still am a bit difficult, trying to fix that up. But every time we’d have a bit of an argument before I went to bed, he’d come into the room and say, “Sorry, Gareth. I just want to put that right. I want to apologize.” And I’d always say, “No, Dad. Sorry. It was my fault.” But yeah, that’s my early sort of childhood memories of him.

Greg: Yeah, I’d echo those thoughts and on another note, I’ll describe him as firm but fair. So whether if you were in trouble, whether you’re in the wrong, there might be some discipline and some correction, but if you’re in the right, he’d be right there to defend you. And I got into a lot of trouble during my youth, but he was there to protect and care and defend.

Charles: I think it’s interesting, too, you spoke about how he connected with people no matter where they were from. It’s not just within the community. I think that’s good to get that out there. I think of the electrician that lives in the street, how much advice he’s got about where to purchase property and then even recently the physio that helped him with his knee. You know, the physio, what has he said to you about dad?

Dean: Yeah, I mean he just said dad’s always there caring for him, you know, giving him life advice, trying to give him some extra support, always giving him a tip to support him financially. But I think it’s a good point because not only dad is a visionary and he’s very much an entrepreneur, but he’s also always there for the battler and the underdog and giving them an opportunity and trying to lift them up and giving everybody an opportunity to grow and be the best version of themselves.

Gareth: He’s always stuck up for the underdog, hasn’t he? And that’s how we’ve come up a bit. Like he could, as you as you say, he was visionary. He was a leader. He always had purpose and direction and focus, but then he could talk to all walks of life, couldn’t he?

Lloyd: And what about your mom? What’s she like?

Dean: Yeah, mum’s a hardworking, efficient, diligent woman. She raised us both with care and discipline. Got us to always do our homework, do our chores, learn good habits and understood the value of responsibility and accountability. But I think at the same time, she balanced her role as an excellent mom. She’s got a very dry sense of humour. So we definitely kept grounded, kept life real and always with a laugh.

Gareth: Yeah, she always had a laugh. She had an excellent sense of humor. I think she got that from her father. Grandpa Green, Athol Green. He was pretty funny guy when he got going. But no, mum was a great mum. I often say to younger people, you only get one mum in your life. So look after her, protect her, support her. She had a bit of a stroke a few years ago, so we’re just trying to help her. I happened to live next door, so made a meal for her two nights ago. and go across there where I can. But no, great mum.Greg: It’s interesting you say about making meals because what sticks out in my mind is um mom caring for elderly people and sick people and um remembered time and time again 6:00 p.m. me sitting in the car in the passenger seat holding a tray at dinner and that’d be for two elderly people or in case of one family nearby that’s you know a meal for eight people. So she was always caring for others and always putting other people first.

Dean: And not just members from the community. If she heard if someone was a neighbour was sick or unwell or needed some support um she’d be always up for giving them a meal or giving them some sort of support or some cooking to help them out.

Charles: Yeah, I would say she’s highly intelligent as well. I think the conversations and the humour that we’ve enjoyed over the years about topics all over the world from varying different ideas and topics, but yeah, highly intelligent, awesome humour. Um and she enjoys her own little hobbies, too. She used to love doing sewing if you remember back in the day. Still loves to do sewing. Enjoys architecture and, you know, interior design. She did a lot of work on designing their houses and then often reviewing plans and things for others if people wanted advice. But always, I guess if there’s one thing you’d say, and it kind of links with what Greg said, you just can never stop her doing things for others. And not that you try to, but even when she was unwell or too tired or just got back from overseas or had six kids at home, she’d still be trying to do something for the neighbours or something for the sick person or so… yeah, it’s a pretty awesome quality.

Gareth: They’ve just done I was just going to say they’ve just done 50 years together. We had their anniversary celebration up at your house, Greg. It was good time. But you know, mom’s been an excellent support for dad for over 50 years. And likewise, dad for mom. And they’re being just good role models, brought us up on good morals, good values, you know, friendship, love, kindness, compassion.

Dean: And very unselfish. Just thinking about our childhood experiences and holidays. They’re always challenging and interesting, weren’t they? Mom would always make sure she was taking us out to many and varied places to keep it interesting and engaging.

Charles: And now the interest in the grandkids. Your kids are older than mine, but the interest they take in every single grandkid, rewarding them, giving them life advice, even helping us how to bring them up, teach them things. It’s quite incredible to watch.

Lloyd: Well, you’re all involved in running businesses. Um, so how do you manage the juggle? Managing a business, doing the dad jobs, and all the other responsibilities you have.

Dean: I think all our families would acknowledge and say that we haven’t always done a great job in managing family and work life balance. Speaking for oneself, I think family at time has come second or maybe even third priority due to trying to get a business up and running and get ahead. I was reading a book to my six-year-old daughter the other day and my 19-year-old said, “Dad, you never did that with me when I was six. I guess we reflect back on all the mistakes we’ve made and hope that we learn from those mistakes going forward.

Charles: I would say Covid probably helped at a similar time when Covid came we also sold our business but probably for the first 10 years of my marriage I family definitely came second or third but I think Covid actually helped everyone not only in our community to spend more time at home and realize that it’s not just all about all about business.

Greg: Yeah, I started a few businesses, some of which failed, but doing 15 hour, 16 hour days and then working on the weekends was very common, you know, from a period of when I left school at 17 till probably 28, 29. But thankfully business has turned around and I can spend more time at home and looking after the family.

Lloyd: A common theme in in all your answers has been your dedication, your commitment and a strong sense of belief. Apart from your strong religious beliefs, what else drives you?

Charles: I think I would say setting goals and achieving them. And what I mean by that, it’s not just necessarily a goal for the year or goal for a period of time. It’s a goal every day to seek to have a good day, to do things for others, and to achieve that at the end of the day, I think is a winning feeling. I think the other thing that drives us, and it’s probably come down from the parents and our church in general, is helping others and hoping to elevate their circumstances. I think we get a kick, if you want to call it, or a reward out of helping others that may not be as fortunate as we are to elevate someone else’s circumstances. I think an awesome opportunity that we get.

Gareth: You’re right, Charles. I mean, everyone that’s ever worked with me, even now, and it’s not people in the church, it’s outside the church. I sit down with them and say, “Look, what’s your three-year plan? You’re married, kids. Where do you want to be in 12 months, 2 years, 3 years? What are your financial goals? What are your moral goals? What are your physical goals?” It’s actually incredible. They often come back with a one page, a sheet. And I just had a guy yesterday, nice guy, project manager from Melbourne. He said, “Thank you so much for this bonus you gave me.” He said, “It’s life changing for me and my wife.” So that that actually pumps me up and inspires me to do more for others. Yeah.

Greg: I was just going to say that mentoring others, having started  a business at the age of 21, it’s awesome to mentor other young business entrepreneurs and that really drives me to try and get their businesses up and running because I know how tough it was to, you know, become somewhat successful.

Dean: And I think another point on that is probably stemmed back from our grandfather John Steven Hales who was brought up in the depression. Father would always share stories with us as we grew up and I guess ingrained in us from early on the need for hard work and frugality and getting ahead and paying down our mortgages. So that was always a big a big goal in our lives to get our mortgage paid off. So, I personally got my mortgage paid off a couple of years when I hit 40. But that’s something we try and educate our young people as they get into the working environment to set those goals to be able to get into the real estate market, get married, raise a family, and hopefully get out of debt by the time they’re 40 or sooner.

Gareth: Yeah dad came up pretty tough, actually. Remember the first fight he got in at school? Well, they called him “patchy pants” because grandma made him wear his old grandpa’s pants and his old shoes or something. They were too big. But no, he came up tough. And I used to talk about paying off houses, Dean. I didn’t pay mine off till I was 40 years of age. I started at 17 and then hit 20. I had to take over the business because her cousins moved on to another business. And then we had a bit of a tough run like when the GFC came in ‘07, ‘08 we lost some money we lost some jobs and then 2010 I started UniSpace with Charles. We entered the American market but that was pretty tough and 2 years in we lost a lot of money but we had to trade ourselves out of that and finally probably 5, 7 years after that we cracked it and started to do well but in one sense we weren’t really born with a silver spoon in our mouths. We had to actually work hard for what we got but we don’t regard ourselves as successful. I just say any wins we had was from good collaboration with other smart people and a bit of good luck. Bit of good luck. And you were good at taking us to seminars, Dean. Remember Jim Collins? Good to great. Remember writing down a few notes out of that?

Dean: And the E-Myth.

Lloyd: Do you follow current affairs and news? Like where do you get it getting news from?

Greg: I’m a bit of I’m a bit of a news tragic and sport tragic. Uh, I get my news from all around the world really. You know, from CNN to Fox, obviously Sky News Australia, um, Channel 7, Channel 9, and various streaming services.

Charles: Yeah, I use news.com.au the app. Be lucky to do five, seven minutes a day. I’m bad at it. And I read the newspaper for about 2 minutes while I wait for the coffee. And then I learn everything from when I catch up with Greg about what’s going on.

Gareth: Yeah, I’m pretty passionate about the economy, but just what’s happening on in the world. Like I was fascinated that Trump managed to get a meeting with Putin in Alaska. I know it doesn’t look like a lot came out of it. I bet you there will be a lot that comes out of it. Then I was fascinated that Zelensky got to come across and meet Trump with, you know, the NATO like Italy, France, Germany, UK. It was just excellent to see Zelensky actually wearing a suit, getting on with Trump. But I think some really good things will come out of that. Lloyd, I’m pretty passionate about that. Yeah.

Greg: And hopefully the war ends soon.

Gareth: Correct. Yeah.

Dean: So I guess on that note, as a community, we are very passionate about hope and prosperity and a future for not only all Australians, but the whole globe.

Lloyd: Well, sometimes the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is in the news and more specifically sometimes your family’s in the news. What’s it feel like to be kind of the focus of a media attention?

Gareth: It’s not real nice, Lloyd. I mean, first off, it feels like a bit of a kick in the guts, but to be honest, after a bit, you sort of just get used to it. And I  shouldn’t say hardened by it, but you just you come to expect it. But what I feel bad is the actual community in the church. They’re just sold of the earth people. They’re actually simple people, and they don’t really deserve that sort of negative publicity. So I actually feel more sorry for the average dads and moms out there that don’t can’t really understand what all this press is about. But go on Charles.

Charles: I was going to say it’s been most of my adult life or even the back end of my childhood. So over the years probably become a bit numb to it. But I feel the same way as Gareth. It would be nice if the other side of the story could be told. And I guess that’s why we’re here today to kickstart. Hopefully a few more members of the PBCC are happy to get out there and tell a different side of the story that that hasn’t been told.

Dean: Yeah, echo those comments from, you know, the last two decades of employing people from all walks of life, not just amongst the Plymouth Brethren. Most of our employees are from the wider community. and they often talk about after they join the organization that what they find out about who we are as people is polar opposite to what they’ve read in the media. So unfortunately, it’s been two decades of negativity and a bit of positivity moving forward would be a would be a good refreshing change.

Greg: Yeah. One of our customers spoke to my general manager and just said, “Boy, your boss is getting the hammering at the moment. Just can’t believe why they keep going after them.” So, it was good to hear that from someone that knows us from outside the community. I always get a few calls and some of the guys go, “What the H you doing on the front page of the paper?” And I go, “Look, mate, wrong place, wrong time.” You always get texts from the old employees at UniSpace. They always text us when an article comes out, “Hang in there. We got your back. You’re all good.” It’s like, “Yeah, we’re good.” It’s just another one.

Lloyd: Well, more recently, the church was in the headlines because a lot of parishioners volunteered for an election campaign. Are there any initial comments you want to say about that issue, Dean?

Dean: Yeah, I think the church doesn’t campaign nor support any political parties um or coordinate any volunteer efforts at all. And I think that’s important to be clarified. Whilst the media has branded the church being a coordinator of political activities, it certainly hasn’t been. But what I can tell you, I myself visited a number of polling boos across Sydney during that election campaign and I did run into a number of members of our church out there participating in the democratic process and they were very passionate. And as I said earlier, I think there’s a real desire there for change and a hope and a prosperity for the future of all Australians.

Lloyd: So, did you all volunteer or?

Gareth: I jumped in for a bit, Lloyd? It was actually nothing to do with the church. It was just really concerned businessmen as business owners and moving in business circles not just in the community but a lot of guys outside the community they were just really concerned about Australia really concerned about the state of the economy cost of living going up the rising crime and then there’s so much social unrest globally look at the issue with you Russia and Ukraine and obviously the Middle East. But we honestly felt that Australia deserved a better stronger a braver leader that can actually working with the US that’s our strongest ally and then working with the UK obviously the whole AUKUS defence policy is important but then also working with NATO, France, Germany, Italy, likeminded smart countries and that’s kind of why we we got involved.

Lloyd: The media commentary suggests that it’s against our religion to vote do you have a comment on that?

Greg: Yeah well traditionally we wouldn’t have voted or haven’t voted I can’t speak for others, but I think times have changed a little bit and it’s really up to personal beliefs as to whether you vote or not. And I’m sure some did and some didn’t.

Dean: We’ve often exercised the right in this country for conscientious objectors. We we’ve used that right, but as Greg has said, it’s not a test of fellowship to vote or not to vote and it’s left up to the individuals.

Charles: And to be fair, it’s not checked on or.. I’m 35 years of age. I’ve never been asked by you guys, by anybody within the church whether I’ve voted or whether I haven’t voted.

Gareth: It’s not a big deal. It’s not a big deal.

Lloyd: Is it true that the church had an arrangement with Peter Dutton’s office or the Liberal Party for the last federal election?

Charles: No. that the church um had no arrangement whatsoever with the Liberal Party or with Peter Dutton or with any other party for that matter. Um the church as a group or as the PBCC don’t connect on with any political party whatsoever. So if individuals within the church choose to back a party or get engaged in the democratic process as Dean said then fine no issues.

Lloyd: So, you’re saying there’s no coordination from the church’s point of view with all our parishioners to encourage them to get involved with a particular political party?

Dean: Not at all. I think I think an important point to note Lloyd is that given we collaborate and connect on a regular basis with a lot of business owners uh that belong to the church across Australia. We have a lot of business seminars and training programs and board advisory roles that we all get involved in. So there’s a lot of communication and collaboration and discussion around the broader issues that are facing the economy in Australia at large.

Lloyd: So why was there so many volunteers this last election from the church?Dean: I think as a result of positive activity of people trying to do their bit.

Charles: Yeah. I’d also say, and I don’t know the numbers of how many small entrepreneurial businesses there are within our church, but all of them as business owners are pretty educated in regards to politics and what impact the economy could have on their business.

Gareth: The country wasn’t in a good place. I mean any business leader or any guy that knew anything about business, they were all saying the same thing.

Charles: Yeah. I went to the local church and I did a bit of volunteering there and I bumped into the cafe owner where I go. Me and him had a chat and he was there doing his bit. I bumped into neighbours. So I think you know there’s it’s a democratic process and a lot of people believe one way, a lot of people follow the other way.

Lloyd: There were some claims that members of the church were threatening or intimidating for other volunteers or voters out there in the booth. Is that what you saw when you were out there?

Charles: No, I definitely didn’t see that. I’m not aware of anything and I’m sure if anybody um acted in a bad way, either from our church or not from our church, I’m sure they were followed up and dealt with accordingly.

Gareth: I wasn’t aware of anything at all. I saw everyone was pretty happy and having a good time and just supporting whatever they were supporting. Yeah.

Lloyd: Is there any other comments you guys would like to make?

Greg: Not at this time.

Dean: Not that I can think of.

Charles: Hopefully our prime minister um can get some more calls with Mr. Trump so that we can reestablish some better links with global powers.

Gareth: Yeah, that would be helpful, Charles. Absolutely. I’d second that.

Lloyd: Well, thanks very much, guys, for your time today and thanks to everyone that’s joined in to listen today. We look forward to your company for the next episode.