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Lloyd: Hello and welcome to the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not so Exclusive podcast. Today’s guest is a character with a colourful backstory that crosses a few oceans. Daniel White was born and raised in Northern Ireland during a difficult time fraught with divisive religious conflict. These days he’s living the American dream in Detroit with his wife and two children. Daniel, welcome to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Daniel: Lloyd, I’m the youngest of four children. I think being the youngest had its advantages for sure. I definitely wouldn’t say I was spoiled, but I quite quickly grew up to be very competitive, win arguments I didn’t have the right to win, and more importantly, learned to duck when unidentified flying objects. Sometimes a fist came heading for me. But I lived for the first 23 years of my life in Northern Ireland, and then I moved to Scotland for six years, and then went back home to Northern Ireland for 2 1/2 years. And then I’ve been in the States now for 3 1/2 years, and I never want to move again. So today I live in Detroit, Michigan, with my wife, Jody, and my son, who’s 8, Jesse, and my daughter, Piper, who’s 5.

Lloyd: So what was it like to grow up in Northern Ireland as a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church?

I have to say, most of my beautiful scenic memories come from the country of Ireland. It’s a beautiful country. We always tried to get out, do a little bit of hill walking, go to the beaches at weekends. We had, our parents taught us to be entrepreneurial from an early age, so we would go door to door selling home goods. When we were kids, we would play a lot of sport in the street with our neighbours. We became very competitive at that too. We would arrange football matches amongst the community, soccer maybe I should call it. And yeah, we had a little grass cutting business as well, which kept us very, very busy. But overall, in Northern Ireland, Lloyd, there was a lot of division and tension, even write-downs to separation in schools based on religious beliefs, et cetera. I think the generations above me really went through that. They were living in the epicentre of when it was really dark times, but there was always that underlying sense that something could change at any point. I remember we used to walk to school in the British Army, we were still in Northern Ireland then, and they would patrol the streets. So overall, that did add an element of safety to it, but it was, it’s only as you come out of it as an adult, you realise how abnormal that was. My dad remembers, he grew up right in the centre of town and he remembers bombs going off, the building opposite actually got blown up, their windows used to get blown out. In terms of living our beliefs, Lloyd, didn’t have much grief at all, just the normal, you know, school kids who maybe knew we were a little bit different. We had one chap who used to live around the corner and he used to throw the odd stone at our house. So I remember once my dad coming out to the car at 5:30 in the morning. morning to go to the Lord’s Supper and he had to clean the leftover of someone’s Chinese curry from the night before off the windscreen.

Lloyd: So was there many members of the church in Northern Ireland in those days?

Daniel: So there wasn’t a lot, Lloyd. It was about 600. So Londonderry itself had about 150 community members. It’s quite different now being from Detroit, which has twice that number, 300. But there was four meetings, four community meetings within the country of Ireland. So we had Londonderry, Belfast, a little town called Warrenpoint, and then Dublin. The Brethren has since all relocated out of Dublin, and they mostly moved back up to Northern Ireland or somewhere further afield if they had close family connections in other countries. But what about school?

Lloyd: Where did you attend a school?

Daniel: I went to a state-run primary school. There was a lot of community members there, a lot of wider community as well. Then in terms of my secondary education, the community schools where we send our children were just in their infancy when it came to the point of going to secondary school. Due to our energy and our disposition to generally create chaos, my parents felt it would be better for the teachers and for us if we went to again, a public school, a public secondary school.

Lloyd: So in your early 20s, you told me that you ended up moving to Scotland, but I understand there’s quite a backstory to that move, and maybe we should leave that for another episode.

Daniel: Absolutely, happy to come back and do that, Lloyd. It was really a turning point, a point of reflection in my life.

Lloyd: But ultimately it was the place where you got married and had your first child. How did you meet your wife there?

Lloyd: Yeah, well my wife’s from Coventry, which is a city in England. One of my good friends is my wife’s first cousin, so that’s how we met. I was actually back in Ireland because he lived in Warren Point. I was back in Ireland for a dinner party. And I met her there. We had met five years prior. I actually had an employment interview that I had at the company that she worked for. So we did know of each other. It wasn’t all cold and frosty. But certainly the setting didn’t feel very romantic at the time. Funnily, she often reminds me, Lloyd, that she had actually seen me across the room at a church event about three years prior to us getting married. In her words, a rather horrendous hair style and a bizarre green jumper. Life is a funny way of turning itself around, Lloyd, but I’m definitely happy to relinquish my fashion choices to her because I still have a little bit of that in me.

Lloyd: Well, you and me probably don’t have to worry about hairstyles too much anymore, but after your first child, you ended up moving back to Northern Ireland. Can you tell us about that?

Daniel: So around that time, Lloyd, I had reached a bit of a ceiling in my employment. So I actually took on a new role for the company I still work for today. But it was involving a lot of travel back to Ireland, sometimes twice a week. And with the young baby at home, it began to feel a little bit, that rhythm began to feel a little bit unsustainable. So we made the choice to move back to be closer to family and get support from them. And then, so that was in October 2019, we moved. And we actually had my daughter in June 2020. She was born in Ireland.

Lloyd: So did that move back home turn out to be a good decision?

Daniel: It was great to move back. It gave me the chance to show my wife all of the things that I had talked about, all of my old haunts from my childhood. But it also gave me the chance to maybe relinquish some links with friends and family that I had left not on the best terms. And I’m really thankful for the relationship that my wife was able to form with my parents in particular.

Lloyd: Then moving on in 2022, I think you said you made another big move, and that was to the United States of America. What was behind that one?

Daniel: We only came for a month for trial for business purposes. The company I was working for had a position that made a lot of sense because by By coincidence, Lloyd, my mother grew up in Detroit. She’s lived in Northern Ireland now for over 40 years, but she grew up in Detroit, which meant that I had the passport, I had everything that I needed to be able to live and work there. We never planned for it to be permanent, Lloyd, but as business opportunities started to fall into place, it started to feel like a really natural fit, the opportunity and the convenience of of America kind of sucks in.

Lloyd: It’s a big move to move to another country. Did the support of the church community help you through that transition period?

Daniel: Absolutely, Lloyd, without question. You know, just even from a practical point of view, childcare, meals appeared out of nowhere. People really supported us.

Lloyd: So what’s the biggest differences between UK and America?

Daniel: So moving to America really blew us away, Lloyd. I guess the scale and the Convenience of everything they say that only 50% of Americans actually have passports, so I guess that means the other 50% don’t travel everywhere, because they don’t need to. They’ve got the sun, the sand, the surf, the national parks, the scenery, so it’s a really amazing country. I’m very privileged to be part of it. But moreover, I feel like the culture of America has been built up on Christianity. It’s not that it’s not inclusive of other religions, but I feel very safe and I feel very protected living my beliefs in this country.

Lloyd: It sounds like you’re living the American dream.

Daniel: Absolutely, Lloyd. I’d agree with that 100%.

Lloyd: But just finally, I think you’ve got Scottish, English, and Irish in your house, all living under the one roof. Must make for some interesting sports rivalries.

Daniel: Yes, Lloyd. Well, the big one is the Six Nations Rugby Tournament. So we get a little bit of grief from the in-laws with that one, and I tell my son he has to support Scotland, because that was where he was born. But I do like to follow the Irish team. We’re getting a little bit of grief from the local community in Detroit as well because we’ve got some Kiwis there and we’ve got some South Africans.

Lloyd: Thanks for coming along and sharing your story with us. I’m really keen to hear the rest of the story about the move up to Scotland. And would you be happy to join us for another episode?

Daniel: Happy to tell you about Bonnie Scotland.

Lloyd: Very good. Well, thanks to all that have taken the time to tune in and listen along. I really appreciate your company. Make sure you give us a thumbs up on YouTube or a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify, and thanks for your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Hello and welcome to the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a Not So Exclusive Podcast. Today I’m joined by Melissa Biggs, an industrious, hard-working Brethren woman who lives in the Canadian prairies. As we speak, she’s preparing to launch her own business while working multiple jobs. But she’s taken the time out of her very busy schedule to speak with us today about her experiences and her opinions. Melissa, welcome to the podcast. Can you please introduce yourself?

Melissa: My name is Melissa and I’m 33 years old. I’ve been married to my husband Daniel for seven years. I live in Regina, Canada.

Lloyd: So tell me about Regina. How did you end up living there?

Melissa: It’s a totally different world to where I grew up in Montreal. But the people are great. That’s within the community and in the wider community. A lot of them are with a farming background, hardworking, high integrity people. So we’re very happy here.

Lloyd: How many Brethren live there?

Melissa: About 86 Brethren in our community in Regina. So it’s obviously a tight-knit, tight-knit bunch, almost like a family, really. We know each other very well. But we also, of course, have links with… other Brethren community members from all over the world, so we never feel too small and isolated.

Lloyd: So we talked about you working multiple jobs, but how would you describe what you do for work?

Melissa: I’ve been in B2B sales for over 15 years now. So in the last five years, I’ve juggled mostly two part-time jobs, both of which were in sales and marketing. I am bilingual because I grew up in Montreal, so I do a bit of outside sales face-to-face along with my husband, Daniel. in Quebec for that market. Then the last year, I’ve actually spent a lot of the time as interim general manager at a virtual assistance company called Zembr. So I have a role as sales and marketing manager, but I’ve been doing the interim general management role as well. That’s been a really amazing challenge, the role at Zembr that stretched me and taught me a lot about business. In fact, in January 2026, I’m actually launching my own business here in Regina.

Lloyd: For the benefit of our listeners, we’re recording this in December 2025. So by the time we go live, your business is probably going to be up and running. So what industry is that going to be in?

Melissa: The prairies where we are, there’s a lot of heavy industry, mining, oil and gas, a lot of power generation, that type of thing. So it’s going to be something that touches on those industries.

Lloyd: Very good. And will Daniel be joining you in the business?

Melissa: We’ll collaborate on strategy, obviously. We love talking business and chatting about opportunities in our downtime. But he’s very, very committed and engaged in his own full-time career. So he will be, you know, I’m sure he’ll be available to help me mentoring some of the younger sales staff. He’s very strong in sales. But I will be the one running the business, driving it forward as general manager.

Lloyd: Sounds like the two of you make a great team.

Melissa: It’s very cliche, probably, but we’re really best friends. And I think we both, you know, we encourage each other to do our best. We push each other to take on new opportunities and challenges.

Lloyd: It’s great you have the support of your husband, but did you know there was a common misconception about marriages in the Brethren that they’re all pre-arranged? Was that your experience?

Melissa: You know, that actually, it makes me mad, because, you know, when you say, you know, arranged marriages, that conjures up all sorts of, you know, removing autonomy from young women, and that’s really scary. That’s not something I or any other young woman I know would be interested in being a part of. I didn’t rush into marriage, and nor was I pressured into it. I was very, you know, into my career in my 20s, and I wasn’t interested in being distracted, as I saw it then, by a serious relationship and marriage, and I never had anyone discourage me from that.

Lloyd: Talking of misconceptions, another popular misconception, if you like, if you can call it that, is the fact that people in the church have no choice. What would you have to say to that?

Melissa: I think whether it’s marriage or staying in the church, it’s just that, a misconception. We do have choice. And in fact, as a child and a young person growing up in the church, I remember being told, you will need to make the decision to stay or to leave. And that’s entirely up to you. And it’s a choice you have to make. You know, you get to different crossroads in life and you might make that choice as a young child and then you might have to make it again when you graduate high school and throughout your life. I made the choice to stay in the church. Some of my friends didn’t and I respect that, but at every point I chose to stay.

Lloyd: So the friends you’re talking about that did make a different choice and chose to leave the church, did you cut them off at that point or was there still some contact?

Melissa: One specifically I’m thinking of, I didn’t cut her off. In fact, I stayed friends with her. We would go shopping, go for walks together. I was actually encouraged that I should stay friends with her, be there for her. And the only reason that friendship eventually fell apart was our values became no longer aligned and I chose to no longer pursue that friendship.

Lloyd: So as a woman in the church, have you ever felt like you were being brainwashed or forced to get married and then quit work?

Melissa: No, not at all. I’ve never felt that way. I’ve only ever felt supported and encouraged. In fact, I’m actually, as a woman, I’m grateful to the leaders of our church who have they’ve empowered us and encouraged us to be the best version of ourselves, to fulfill our potential. And frankly, I find it offensive that you would think that I don’t have the individual autonomy to make decisions for myself. and to, decide what my future is going to look like and pursue that future. when I was at school, I was one of those kids who, in primary, this is I wanted to be, a race car driver for F1 and then, a nurse and then a, landscape architect. And nobody ever told me I couldn’t. Nobody ever said, no, that’s not something you can do as a brethren girl. Then in high school, I got very passionate about marine biology. I was studying Cambridge A-levels and I was working on a research paper on marine biology. And there was a PhD professor marine biologist from Massachusetts who was helping me. He was giving me career advice and what it would take to get into that field. I was really passionate about it and no one ever said, no, you can’t pursue that.

Lloyd: What influenced you to get into the business world rather than marine biology or race car driving?

Melissa: First of all, I guess I was probably 16, 17 when I got my driver’s license and I just realized driving was very low on my talent list. So I decided that I wasn’t very productive to pursue that and I didn’t live near an ocean, kind of lost interest in that. So I was studying business, Cambridge A-level business course, and I guess I just kind of got bitten by the business bug. I really was fascinated by the opportunities that world could bring me, and I was simultaneously studying French A-level Cambridge first language. After high school, I also pursued a Certificate IV and Diploma of Accounting. I followed that with a UBT course, which is Advanced Business Management, which it’s kind of like a micro MBA, fast track sort of course where about 15 months covers all aspects of business.

Lloyd: So do you feel like now you’re married, that’s holding you back from progressing your career at all?

Melissa: No, not at all. In fact, I would say I’ve grown more professionally since I’ve been married than prior to marriage. And, I personally have never experienced, what they say, glass ceiling, that as a female or as a community member. In fact, I’ve found so many mentors and people who are willing to help me.

Lloyd: Now you’re progressing a bit in your own career. Has it given you an opportunity to provide a bit of that mentorship to some others?

It’s actually something I really enjoy doing. I love working with younger women and younger men to support them in their career and to help them see the potential they have in themselves, help them set goals, help them try to reach those goals and fulfil their potential.

Lloyd: Well, you’re obviously very busy and got a lot on your plate with work and everything, but when you’re not working, what’s life look like for you?

Melissa: We have a very full, happy, normal life. We both get into fitness. I love fitness. I’ve been, you know, weightlifting for the last actually over a decade now. And about five years ago, my husband encouraged me to get into running. We love, entertaining, filling our house with people, friends, family. My husband cooks a mean chicken satay, actually, which we love experimenting with new recipes, new cocktails. We like to create a bit of an atmosphere, you know, light a big fire. We live in a very cold place. And just have a good time and get to know people. We’ve also had an opportunity or a lot of opportunity to travel both within North America extensively and then globally. We’ve been to Argentina twice since being married. We’ve been to the UK. We took my husband’s elderly aunt there, assisted with her travel and then we actually spent a very nice week in the south of France.

Lloyd: Well finally, what is it that you love about life in the church?

Melissa: The main thing that I would say is just our shared faith. So at the end of the day, We’re just here because we’re Christians, we love the Lord Jesus, we believe in Him, and we believe in striving to live our life here as… people of faith walking in the light of Christianity. There’s this like rich tapestry of people in the church who have different backgrounds, different life experiences, different personalities obviously. But we all have this shared faith and I think that gives, there’s this high level of trust between us because we’re sharing that faith.

Lloyd: Thanks very much for coming along today and spending the time with us. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks to all that have taken the time to tune in and make sure you and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Hello and welcome to the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a Not so Exclusive Podcast. This episode we’ll be hearing from a young man called Michael Bond. He lives in a small rural town in Canada and despite the four-hour drive to the airport, he still loves the fact that he gets to travel all over the world, both in his role at Universal Business Team and with his family for church events. Mike, welcome to Behind the Plymouth Brethren. 

Mike: Thanks for having me on, Lloyd. I’m 28 years old from a small rural farming community in Saskatchewan. I work for Universal Business Team as part of the UBT Technology Team and been married for about a year to a woman from Argentina who I actually met through work travel. So you could say that’s one of the perks of getting to travel for work. 

Lloyd: So Maple Creek, can you tell us a bit about the town? Is it a big town or a small town? 

Mike: On an optimistic sunny day, it’s about 2,200 people. It takes about 4 minutes to drive across the town, but we do have a few more services than you would expect. Because we serve a large rural area, we have a few banks and two gas stations and a couple grocery stores and kind of all the basics needed for rural life. 

Lloyd: So 2,200 people, what percentage of those would be part of the Plymouth Brethren? 

Mike: There’s about 125 of us. One of the local families just recently welcomed a set of twins. 

Lloyd: Do they have much of an impact on the community at large? 

Mike: They probably have a bit of an outsized impact actually in the community as a whole. And there’s a few different reasons for that. First of all, The Brethren would own a few different businesses locally, which would employ a good number. But then there’s also the charitable arm of the church, a rapid relief team, which that would, you know, recently there was a large-ish fire just outside of town. They would have been on site making sure the first responders had meals and those types of things. And then in addition to that, they often do proactive work as well, or if there’s a fundraiser, they’ll have to provide some food or provide some food hampers for those in need locally, all those kinds of things that they tend to get involved in, which I would say would have a larger impact than just the number 125 might suggest. 

Lloyd: So you’re a small town boy at heart or? 

Mike: I don’t know if I go quite that far. There are certainly, I do certainly enjoy the perks of living in a small town, being close to everyone, two, 3 minutes away from my parents and 4 minutes away from the grocery store and all those kinds of things. But I love to travel. I’ve had the privilege to travel quite a bit through work and various other opportunities. So always keen to get out and about and see things. I even had the opportunity to live in New York for four months at one point, which was quite an experience. 

Lloyd: So New York sounds like a big contrast to Maple Creek. Can you tell us about that part? 

Mike: You could say that. No, it was, moving to New York for four months was an incredible experience. We did it when I was in my, I guess, late teens or early 20s as a family. We lived there for four months. The pace of city life was exciting and you get in the groove and it keeps you moving along. It was probably the biggest downside about New York is the traffic. Spending 3 hours a day in traffic is not as exciting, but definitely a whole different pace of life to small town Saskatchewan. 

Lloyd: Where have you travelled to? What’s some of the destinations? 

Mike: I think I’ve been to six or seven countries now. France, Germany, New Zealand, Rome. I don’t know. That’s a few of them. But my mom had quite a large family, so we’ve travelled some internationally for that. And then we’ve also, through work and other church events, had the opportunity to travel more extensively than perhaps otherwise might have been the case. 

Lloyd: Brethren generally, when they travel, only travel to places where they can go to church meetings, where there’s other Brethren there, and there’s a bit of a misconception that for that reason, no one gets to see much of the world. Do you think that’s true? 

Mike: It’s actually been the opposite experience for me, Lloyd. If it wasn’t for my connections through the church and the opportunities that that’s brought along for me, I probably wouldn’t have travelled as much as I have. Coming from rural Saskatchewan, you know, my probably inclination would have wound up to be working at a local shop or garage or something like that. But through my connections with the church and the education opportunities that I’ve had, it’s allowed me to not only work for a global firm, which has its own travel opportunities, but also to make connections. travel on church groups and that kind of thing, as well as for family and then for work and additional. So I would say for me, the church has actually allowed me to travel significantly more than probably most of my counterparts would have. 

Lloyd: When Brethren travel, we generally stay with other church members at places rather than hotels. What’s the benefits of doing that? 

Mike: It’s an awesome experience. I mean, you, for example, When I was going to France, you show up at a country where they don’t speak the language, and there’s a friendly face at the airport to greet you and make sure you’re looked after and get where you need to go. And then the care in the homes is next level. You know, they make sure that you have everything you need. It’s just an awesome experience to be able to travel while still having that connection and the common interests. 

Lloyd: To have a network of people that you know and comfortable with, is a great benefit when you’re traveling, would you say? 

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. It doesn’t, whether it’s England, France, I mean, it doesn’t matter the country or the language. The food might be a little different, but you still have that shared ground and that common connection that draws you together. 

Lloyd: You mentioned earlier that you’ve worked for a global firm. What’s your role there? 

Mike: So I’m the regional department manager for UPT Technology in North America. So basically I look after another management. that side of it for all of our laptops, phones, some software, those kinds of things. 

Lloyd: Okay, so that makes you pretty tech-savvy, does it? 

Mike: I wouldn’t say beyond the average, no. Fortunately, most of the role is actually just more management and vendor relationships and that kind of thing, but… I mean, I can use a computer as well as anybody else, but I’m certainly not into programming or any of those things at all. But always up for a new challenge and keen to grab new opportunities as they come along. So here I am. 

Lloyd: What was your roles before you joined UBT? 

Mike: I have a bit of a varied career past, I guess. I started out in the family business that manufactures cabinet doors, actually. And then from there, I spent a couple of years working for a firm that sells cattle nutrition supplements. And then after that, I spent a couple of years at a firm that manufactures wheelchair vehicles. And then I wound up at UBT where I’ve been for the last five years or so. 

Lloyd: Your education kind of led you into business, did it? 

Mike: Absolutely. So I spent from grades 6 to 12 at OSG, and that was pretty formative for me. It gave me the opportunity to study business in a very practical sense. So we took a number of courses, you know, accounting and economics and all those kinds of things, which are good business foundations. Then we also had a course called Entrepreneurialship, where we actually started our own business and ran it for, I think it was a semester. And then we had to close it down and do a summary of the profits. And me and my partner each made about $1,000 on our business. So it was a good experience for us to get into the business world and actually see the realities of being involved in business. And those skills definitely translated over to the work world. And then on top of that, a number of the companies I work for were generous enough to provide additional training, often through UBT. UBT is an education arm as well. That also helped set me up for future success. 

Lloyd: Well, Brethren Community are generally, well over, quite business-minded and entrepreneurial and have done quite well at starting up new family businesses, et cetera. Why do you think that is? 

Mike: In my mind, Lloyd, there’s probably three things that contribute to it. First of all is just the general shared accumulated knowledge in the community in the way that UBT has helped to collate that and make it available more widely in the community. There’s also the fact that it doesn’t really matter where you are in the community and who your friend group might be. You would have interactions and a social connection with people who would probably be business owners or at least senior business management. And when you’re in contact with people in those roles, it pushes you to strive for it and you see it’s achievable. And there’s also just the work ethic in the community. The fact that, from a young age, our parents encourage us, you get up early and you have a structure to your day and you make stuff happen. And I think that tends to lend itself towards success. 

Lloyd: Yeah, even though you’re kind of a small town type of guy, through your connections of work and church, you’ve now got connections all over the world by the sound of it. 

Mike: Yeah, it’s interesting. You just, you find yourself, you know, probably three or four times a week, you end up messaging somebody on the other side of the world, whether it’s work related or just checking in on them because there’s someone and you haven’t messaged them for a while or even recently we just had somebody from overseas come stay at our house who through a church event and you build a connection and then you keep in touch in it. Yeah, you build this global network that keeps you in touch with what’s happening all over the place. 

Lloyd: So what’s the future look like? You’re stuck in Maple Creek, you think you’ll stay there or you’re going to move out one day or what’s going to happen? 

That’s a good question. I wouldn’t say anything’s ever off the table, but with a four-hour drive to the airport and a few things like that, I mean, there are some inconveniences. But at the same time, as a community, we tend to stay where our roots are. And our roots are definitely in Maple Creek at this point. We’re interested in making sure the town succeeds and that there’s prosperity and there’s employment opportunities and all these things that the community needs to help get ahead. 

Lloyd: How’s the wider community in Maple Creek feel about the Brethren living there? What’s the general consensus in the town about the Brethren’s presence? 

Mike: I mean, there’s always some that would probably be negative about it or have a negative viewpoint. I mean, that’s just human nature. But I think overall, the town as a whole would view the Brethren locally as an asset to the community and have a positive outlook on it. There is quite a number of the community businesses would employ a lot of wider community as well. And then I think overall, just from an economic standpoint as well as what we do charitably, the Brethren would contribute quite a bit to the community, which we view quite positively, I think. 

Lloyd: And finally, what is it that you’d like the water community to understand about the Brethren outside of the Maple Creek community, maybe that you think people don’t really understand? 

Mike: We’re just a simple people who are… I mean, obviously within our community, we want people to get ahead. But then also outside of the community as well, whether you are an employee or someone who has a neighbour or just a general acquaintance of somebody in the community, our interest is that everybody gets ahead. 

Lloyd: It’s all we’ve got time for today and it’s been great to get to know you a bit better. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. 

Hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw, and this is the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren. It’s my privilege to welcome back two guests today who are elders of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, John Anderson and Charles Baker. Previously in our discussion, we got an overview of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and what life is like in it. Today, we’d like to find out a bit more about them both. their lives, their views on the world, and their experience with our senior leader, Mr Bruce Hales. John and Charles, welcome back. So I’m interested to know what was childhood like for you?

John: I had parents that had come through the Depression. I had a father that was a dry cleaner. Then he sold a salt block, he worked for a salt block manufacturing company, and then he sold car accessories. He ended up working for me at the end of his life. Good parents. I did year 12. We lived in Wentworthville, which is a western suburb of Sydney. And after I finished school, I did a cadetship in accounting. And I went to work for a couple of large companies and then ended up working for Mr Bruce D. Hales in 1976. Worked for him for five years, enjoyed the time immensely. Then I bought a little business in 1981 and that business continues till today.

And Charles, what about you?

Charles: I grew up in Chatswood. Father and mother didn’t have a lot to come and go on. They were very kind to us, very caring. Really, everything they had, they expended on us, to live frugally. That put a lot of values into us, instilled a lot of values, or at least tried to, which we’re very thankful for.

You’re both church elders and you take a leading role in helping others and helping with the meetings, et cetera, but it’s not actually what you do for work, is it?

John: No, I’m semi-retired, thankfully. I have to deal with charities and I do some, I have interest in the small businesses that I try and assist with, and I do help with accommodation for… for the older people in our church that need help with their housing. Also try and provide housing for persons that come into the city for medical reasons.

Charles: I still work a fair bit in the business, perhaps half my time’s in the business. Any available time I spend trying to help persons get employment, I feel a responsibility for that. Do a little bit for the schooling, helping with children and grandchildren, coming around and spending some quality time with them. And then others in their businesses or that might be going through a few testing times, try and give them a bit of a boost and encouragement if we can to help them get ahead.

Well, John, last time we were together, we spoke a bit about Christmas, but there’s another day that comes up that’s Anzac Day that is important to you. Can you tell us why that is?

John: Yeah, well, my dad was an Anzac, so Anzac Day means quite a bit to us and our family. one way or another. But my dad went to New Guinea, and he was there between the end of 1944 to the beginning of 1946. He served his country as a medico. He joined the AOF, so he rose up through the ranks as a corporal and a sergeant. He was a non-combatant, but he was a medico. And he used to always tell us about the way the men had to fight for their country and we’ve got freedom. We have to respect that, we get freedom today because of the way those men performed and earned their stripes and supported their country.

So what other lessons and stories did your father share about his time in the army?

John: You know, it changed their lives, Lloyd, that time in the army. They saw death, they saw fighting, combat, they saw the enemy close quarters. My dad was a medico, so he saw a lot of hurt and damage to the wounded. He came home with a lot of remedies. Often we’d sit up at home with a bucket of water full of salt with a foot in it for some reason or other. I think probably above everything, the thing that he learned in the Army was respect for authority. And he continued through his life with respect. He met Mr John Hales in the Army, during his time in New Guinea. He often used to talk about walking through the jungle for 5 miles on a Sunday to sit in a tent with all these comrades in their jungle greens. And he said, Mr. John Hales would read the scripture. He was the most gifted of all the men, there was quite a number of men. There would have been probably 15 or 20 men. They were all, they all lived their lives with respect for Mr. John Hales because of his gift, his leadership role, his mentorship. And he was only 23 at the time. My father would have been a bit slightly older, but these were very young men and their lives were formed by that link in that circumstances which weren’t exactly congenial.

And what about your dad, Charles? What kind of man was he?

Charles: So my dad was born in 1914 and he was a lovely dad. Couldn’t have asked for more really in a father. But his life wasn’t easy. I don’t think he ever complained about it to us, but we found out more from others than we did from him. At the start of the Great Depression, 1931, I think, he was a 17-year-old and couldn’t, his father found some work in a rural property just south of Texas, QLD, northern New South Wales, cutting down trees and putting up bush fencing and looking after livestock. And through the 30s he just did practical work to whatever he could do to get through. They were tough years. And then in 1941 he was also enlisted in the army, and he went to New Guinea. He was part of an infantry battalion there. So he was right in the combat area of the jungles of New Guinea. It was a very difficult time in his life. He didn’t really talk much about it. Later, probably again we found out more from others as to the hardships that he bore. It was very affecting to see what scriptures in the Holy Bible meant a lot to him. One that he used to speak about was, ‘the father of compassion and God of all encouragement’. I think that meant a lot to him. He must have proved it through those years. And then also the verse about Paul on the Damascus Road who said, ‘what shall I do, Lord?’

And what about your mums?

John: Yeah, my mother was always supportive. She was influential. She wanted us to get ahead in life. She’d come through the Depression, as we’ve said. She worked in the banks. It was all about save, save, save and get some interest. She was intelligent. She knew when we were conning her. She was a great mother.

Charles: Yeah, well, my mother had an interesting life. She started off as a mothercraft nurse. I think they call them nannies. That’s right. And she used to work in, live in different houses and care for these little children. She didn’t get married till a bit later. I think she said if she’d been married earlier, she would have had ‘a dozen of the things’ –  as in children. But she was very kind to us and very caring. And when my father was retired, the care for others seemed to intensify because they were freer and they would be constantly looking after young people or those whose parents might have been away somewhere, they’d take them in. They were in their later years doing this. But they had a lot of energy and kindness – visiting sick in hospitals and the aged in nursing homes, taking some into their house even to care for them, person’s in need. So it was a great thing to observe really, their kindness. And then after my father died, my mother continued this level of care and service to others for about another 25 years until she was in her mid-90s.

Well, you’ve both known Mr Bruce Hales for many years. When did you first meet him?

Charles: Yeah, I first met him in the 70s, but extensively from the early 80s. He took an interest in what I was doing for my livelihood. I was just a young carpenter slash builder, and he gave me some work to do on his houses and workplace, and then further to that on his work projects. And he was… as my brother said, I used to come home from work inspired. And it was that influence that was, if you like, bringing out the best. And that’s been his whole life, from what I can see, is doing things for others to better their situations. So I was a recipient of that and I saw others getting that same treatment. He was, what he did for me, he did for all. He also cared for the older ones and needy, needy persons, gave persons employment, if they were out of employment. He looked after widows and that was a real example. At that point in the early 80s he had a young family, just three children, so it was just very, very eye-opening to observe that and to prove it myself.

John: When I went to work for him, I found him, you know, very creative. He’s industrious. He worked hard, terribly hard. He used to come in early in the morning, very early morning. We used to start at 6 or earlier, and then he’d go home with his family for breakfast, then come back again. He was very creative. He’s very kind. He gave me a percentage of the fees. I did very, very well financially. I worked hard, but he was incredibly very kind and generous. Many times we’d finish late. I’d finish late and he’d just say, come in for tea on your way through to church in the evening. And I’d go home and he’d have two little kids in high chairs and another little child alongside. Growing up, his wife could cook some good dinner and we’d go off. He’s a great host. I found him a great mentor and he was very, he was a leader.

And what about Mrs Hales?

John: Mrs Jenny Hales. She’s a very kind, very kind woman. She’s once again very diligent, intelligent. She’s a great mother. She’s had six children. She’s kept everything going. She hasn’t been easy for her. She’s been a great help to our family. We had an unfortunate situation where my daughter-in-law had an incurable cancer. It came upon her. And Jenny Hales was very supportive. We went to America. She supported us and gave us confidence in pursuing other types of treatment in America. And she’s, above all in that, she’s been a great friend of me and my wife.

Charles: I was privileged to. see Mrs Jenny Hales through the building projects that we did. And she was very kind. Even the neighbours to where they lived benefited from her kindness. And even with this young family, as I mentioned earlier, she was looking after both old and young. One case stood out in my mind, a young man of 17 from Queensland that came down to Sydney for treatment for cancer and condition that he had. And she took his family and accommodated them in her house with Mr Hales and cared for them wonderfully and did everything they could to make the life the very best to this young man who had this terminal condition.

Well, thanks, John and Charlie. That’s all we have time for today. And I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast. And thanks to all that have taken the time to tune in and listen along. Really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you’d like to leave us a five-star review, we’d be very thankful.

Hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw. Welcome to the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not so Exclusive podcast. It’s my privilege to welcome two guests today who are elders of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, Mr John Anderson and Mr Charles Baker. I know there’s many of our listeners who are familiar with the Plymouth Brethren faith and way of life. But there may be others who are not and may be curious to learn more about the values and our commitment to separation. John and Charlie, welcome to the podcast. Could you please introduce yourselves for our listeners? 

Thanks, Lloyd. John Anderson is my name. I’m 70 years of age. I’ve had four children who are all married. I’ve been blessed with 11 grandchildren. I’ve been happily married to one wife for 48 years. I’m semi-retired. I have some business interests. 

Yeah, I’m Charles Baker. I’m 64 years of age. I live in Sydney. I’ve been happily married for nearly 42 years. I’ve been blessed with four children and 10 grandchildren who we love dearly. And we have run a small family business at the Sydney area. About 75% of our valued staff are from the wider community. 

And John, for those that aren’t familiar with the Brethren Church. Could you explain to us how the church is structured? 

It’s a non-hierarchical idea. We don’t have paid positions in the church, or we don’t have ordained arrangements within the church. It’s really a system of administration for those that are committed to the way of life of the church. So it’s a family idea. It’s really a system of family. 

Like a Christian fellowship. 

That’s it. We believe that, everybody thinking for others is the way the church should run, and it’s really the secret of Christianity. 

And Charles, could you explain to us what a church elder is in the Plymouth Brethren? 

It’d be a person that has experience and persons with a capacity to care for others and developed in a knowledge of God and someone that a person could go to for guidance and help. 

They’d be reliable, trustworthy persons, persons that could mentor you, persons that could give you an outlook, a balanced outlook on life. 

What’s a typical church meeting like? 

Well, we meet daily and we gather together with our families and others that we’re in fellowship with, and we have Bible-leading discussions and all are free to contribute and share their impressions and ask questions. 

Yeah, and the sister will, we call them sister, the women will open with a hymn, and then a prayer will be conducted by a person of any age group. And we have a joyful time. Lloyd, we come together at many occasions. I’ve had to sit in my car for half an hour after meeting while my children socialise with their friends or their school friends or whoever they have had to do with during the day. So it’s actually a time of actually great joy and in one sense, entertainment for the children keeps them happy and keeps them involved in the things that are good in life. 

Well, we’re a mainstream Christian church, but one part of our faith does set us apart, and that’s what we call separation. What is separation, and what’s the scriptural basis for it? 

Well, the basis for separation is the Lord’s Supper. Lord’s Supper is a wonderful occasion. We celebrate weekly, and it’s really an answer to the Lord’s request. This do in remembrance of me, and it’s the central point in our lives, and everything really flows out of that. 

Yeah, and we have communion with those that we have fellowship with. and we have fellowship with those we have communion with. It’s not that we regard ourselves as different or better than anybody else, but it’s just that is the, you might say, the basis of our communion is the fellowship. 

Well, as a spokesperson for the church, I often get asked about whether we celebrate Christmas or Easter. 

Well, we certainly plan at those times of the year to have extra times together with our families and friends and very enjoyable outings and bonding. We don’t celebrate Christmas and Easter formally. We celebrate the Lord’s Supper, as we said earlier, and that’s a very precious matter to us. 

We enjoy the holidays, Lloyd, just like, you know, anybody or everybody enjoys holidays. Holidays are important to us. It’s family time. It’s, as Charles used the word, bonding. The family position is very important in our in our way of life. 

So, as you’ve been saying, there is a lot of joy in our occasions when we come together. What is it that you most enjoy about it? 

The getting together of families and from persons of all different way of life, and also, of course, from all different countries. It’s not strictured in any way. The meetings we have, we have people from sometimes from all over the world, and we also have groups, Lloyd, where we have arranged groups, travel groups for overseas, which include our families or, various persons from families. They’re conducted on a group overseas. They stay with persons of our church in other countries. And we’ve got, obviously, Brethren in US, in Canada, UK, Ireland, Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, of course, we’ve got South America. So there’s a massive opportunity and potential for people to travel. 

Many of our guests that we’ve had on so far on the podcast have spoken about the support they’ve enjoyed from the community. Do you have a comment about that? 

We feel it’s a responsibility to help others and we try and put that into practice at every opportunity, find a great encouragement in perhaps trying to encourage others, knowing how we’ve been encouraged and We love that scripture of the Apostle Paul at the end of Acts 20, that he showed you all things, thus labouring, you ought to come in aid of the weak. And then he goes on to say, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus that he himself said, it’s more blessed to give than to receive. 

As Christians, we feel we have an obligation to help each other. And that really is the secret of Christianity, that we’re able to help others. 

So do you think, John, that the care and support and the commitment we have to each other is one of the reasons why so few people choose to leave? 

In my family, I’m now a five-generational family. I mean, my grandparents were in the fellowship, my parents were in the fellowship, my me and my wife, fortunately, have been in the fellowship, my children and now my grandchildren. So we’re five-generational. We enjoy it. It’s what we’ve known. It’s what we’ve only ever known. So we’ve never, in essence, grown up with any other lifestyle. So that’s why very few leave the church, because it is their life. It is our life. And we enjoy it. It’s just our life. 

So Charles, when people do find themselves questioning their direction in life and maybe considering leaving, what happens then? 

We would try and help them and we feel any loss deeply. Like that parable of the man who had 100 sheep and he lost one of them and he goes after that one that’s lost and puts it on his, doesn’t stop until he finds it. And that’s the disposition amongst us. 

And as we said, Lloyd, it’s a choice that the person makes and they think about it and they ponder over it, then they make the choice. But all going along with that is our support system, which we would try and encourage them, mentor them, try and show them what a life’s journey looks like and help them. But as we said, it’s very, very rare. This is not a common occurrence. 

At what stage of life do we typically see persons grappling with that question as to whether they’ll stay or leave? 

It’s generally in youth. We all know about the troubles of youth and the tenderness of youth, of course, and different influences come in. We talk about it, Lloyd, in some respects as Fool’s Hill. We’ve got the name of Fool’s Hill, and we know what it is in our own lives, that we’ve all come that way. Generally, our young people stay with us, thankfully and thankful to God that they do. In fact, many say that once they’ve gone, they can’t exactly change their way of life to fit in, and you might say into the world’s system as it is. And in some cases, want to come back? 

And we would welcome them back. 

We would be very glad if persons are prepared to change their way of life and understand the Christian fellowship the way we understand it. We have fellowship with them. 

When a young person comes to you for some guidance or advice, what helps you to know what to say to them? 

Well, I think firstly is being empathetic and take an interest in their best interests. And I think that’s part of what we’ve been shown where the Lord Jesus was the, it might say, the most wonderful example. He came to seek and to save and he went about all quarters doing good and we just seek to get close to them, take an interest in where they’re up to in life, whether it be schooling or their work or their future, whatever their need is. If they’re struggling in some way, we can just try and do something to make that better. 

But if someone does choose to leave, is it common for families to stay in touch? 

I’m sure it’s very common. I couldn’t speak for every family, but I know in our own case and those that we’ve had to do with, that I’m sure the father and mother do what they can on a needs basis, whether that’s providing money or whether it’s providing food or some other need. I’m sure the system of care continues. 

Well, you yourself experienced that. You were out of fellowship at one stage. How did that feel and work out? 

Yeah, well, it wasn’t a good feeling being away from the Brethren, and I deeply feel for those that have been out and haven’t been able to find their way back. But from the moment I was out of fellowship, I I just wanted to get back. I had a longing. I knew it was the right place and that’s where I wanted to be. 

Well, if someone who has left the church, either recently or indeed a long time ago, wanted to reach out and speak to someone, John, would that be welcomed? 

Yes, Lloyd, we don’t have any difficulty if someone reached out. I’ve had an experience just in our wider family where a young, young boy, young male member went away. It was his choice. We tried to help him and encourage him. He came and lived in my house for a while, tried to show him kindness. We were exhorted to show him kindness. They said, at least show him kindness. So that’s all he remembers when he goes, which is what we did. 

Have you seen the church evolve over the decades? 

Yeah, it’s a good word, Lloyd. Definitely the church has evolved. Any organisation over 50 years you’ll find is there’s an evolvement, there’s change. The world is changing, and indeed we are changing in the sense of how we conduct ourselves. Maybe, may I say, the principles that govern our assemblies and our church life and our way of life haven’t changed. The principles haven’t changed, but from, I might say, from a moral viewpoint. But then, over time, we do change in the way we conduct ourselves, and there has been change. We would like to say that the change has been for good, and we have a different viewpoint of life. We’re more empathetic, I guess. We’re more understanding and sympathetic, but the principles haven’t changed. 

Thanks to all that have tuned in to listen along. Really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so don’t miss the next episode. If you really liked it, please give us a five star review. 

Well hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw. Welcome to the latest episode of behind the Plymouth Brethren. My guest today are Arne and Janet. They live on the Central Coast in New South Wales, Australia with their three little girls and work together in their family business. Like many Australian families living in the suburbs, they work hard to pay off their mortgage, they have some strong views about the government of the day, and they also happen to be members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Arne and Janet. Welcome to the podcast. 

I am Arne and I grew up in Cowra, Central West NSW. I’m one of eleven children. We now married and live on the Central Coast and we have 3 little girls of our own. 

I grew up in Newcastle and I was one of seven kids and now I juggle being a mum of three little girls with working in the family business. 

Well you’re both from quite large families. Where do you fit in the sibling rankings, Janet? 

So I was the third of seven kids, six of us quite close together in age and then years later my parents had another little girl, so she was very well loved. We were quite a high-powered tribe of kids. I don’t know how my mum did it. 

So your mum must have had to be pretty strict to keep all those kids in line? 

Not my mum so much. But in hindsight, both my parents were pretty easygoing, even if I didn’t think so at the time. 

What about you, Arne? What’s it like being one of 11? 

I’m actually a twin, so I’ve got a twin brother. So we had a good play, mate. We often we grew up together. 

So how did your parents keep 11 kids occupied? 

Mum used to send us out to the farm, send us well, old enough, which wasn’t very old. We went out there with Dad from a very young age and. I think we learned to drive the Utes at like 6 or seven years. 

It sounds like a fairly free range upbringing. 

Yes, it was free range, but dad made us all work. We would often have visitors to stay, especially younger persons, getting their farm. We would teach them how to run machinery and drive the bikes, move cattle and sheep. 

I do remember a time when the community found out that one of your brothers had had a fairly serious accident on the farm. Can you tell us about that? 

Yeah my younger brother at the time as just on 15, maybe a little bit earlier. He was felling a tree on a on a steep slope and he got the I think he might have got the cut wrong. Little bit wrong when the tree fell on his ankle crashed his ankle. So he went off to Orange Hospital and transferred on to Sydney and he spent six weeks there and they tried to recover his ankle a couple of times and ended up having it amputated. But the care in the hospital system is incredible and the care of the Brethren in Sydney was amazing. They would often come in and spend time with him and. And giving things to do and and care for him night and day and give us all a lift we needed. 

It must have been a pretty tough time at the time. What other life lessons does the farm teach you? 

Dad used to build a lot of the sheds on the farms as we developed them. So we got a lot of engineering experience and background with the farm machinery business as well. So that sort of really set me up with in the business that we’re in today. 

Now you both have your own little family with three little girls. What’s a typical week look like now, Janet? 

Our weeks are busy juggling. We’ve got two different schools plus the business. So our oldest girl, she goes to One School Global in Maitland. She travels on the bus. And the next one goes to the local primary school. And then our baby well. She’s 4. She goes to daycare two days a week while I work and then. You know, there’s always after school activities. Now we’re doing basketball and swimming and ballet. 

Otherwise we’re introducing them to new stuff like downhill mountain bike tracks or helping you get a few grazes here and there. 

And we also entertain a bit like a lot of. Brethren. 

We often would have up to 20 people in the House from time to time and I would cook the meat on the barbecue and Janet would do the sides. The kids would help do a cheese and biscuit tray. 

It’s a big part of the Brethren community entertaining in our homes. As is separation, what we call separation that is eating and drinking with only those that we fellowship with. That’s a commitment we make to each other, isn’t it? 

Our lives are anchored in the in the Lord’s Supper, so we gather with the with those amongst the Brethren every Sunday morning and we and then we would socialise with those that we gather at the Lord’s Supper with. It’s not that we look down on anyone else. But that’s a commitment we make to the assembly and to Christ. 

And for our children, we are trying to give them a strong foundation, teach them the scriptures, but we don’t put demands on them. We don’t have a big list of dos and don’ts. It’s more about just forming a close bond with our children and modelling, well, trying to model the type of Christian that we want them to be. 

So you started your own business about 3 1/2 years ago. How’s that journey been so far? 

It’s been challenging, but it’s also been rewarding. We started off with just the two of us. And now we have 14 staff. 

Brethren community is quite business orientated, there’s a lot of small business amongst the community. Have you had a lot of support since you started? 

We had mentors would jump on and give us advice and we would share our details and and background, you know sales opportunities with them and get feedback. Without that sort of mentorship, we wouldn’t have made the investments that we’ve made. 

And Janet, what’s your career background? 

I studied accounting, my dad was an accountant. It’s just what I always thought I’d do, but then a few years in, my brother decided to go into business and ask if I could join him. So that was interesting. It was just the two of us for a while and we both just did a bit of everything, so I’ve done sales, finance, design. Unloading containers. 

Janet, there’s some misconceptions out there about women in the church that they’re forced to give up work once they get married, no? 

It’s not true. I actually have a number of mum friends that work. And after we got married and started having babies, I actually stopped working and was a stay at home. Mum, that was great too. 

Is that a choice you made, or were you told to do that? 

It’s a choice. But I think the point is, it’s also a choice we make together like a couple makes these decisions together about what’s going to work in their situation and how they want their family life to look. Like I think the famous president really values the role of a mother and the family unit. So we believe it’s important for us to be close and present for our children in their formative years. 

Some journalists in this country, one or two in particular, that have pretty much made a living out of writing about the Plymouth Brethren Church. And one of them claims that women are treated like second class citizens. Have you got any comments about that? 

I actually wrote a letter to one. I was sick of reading this rubbish. And I asked him if he had ever even spoken to a woman who was part of the Plymouth Brethren. And interestingly, he said no, he hadn’t. To be honest, he offered to meet, but by that stage. I knew he had this story he was trying to tell. And I really didn’t want my words to be twisted to suit that agenda. And might I add, I think if there are people out there saying that being a stay at home Mum makes you a second class citizen. That might say a bit more about their views than it does ours. 

Talking about different views. We have been getting a lot of questions from the media about the recent involvement of Brethren in a recent Australian federal election. Did you either you get involved in that or? 

Yeah, I did. I was following the election quite closely. And I actually volunteered after a senior politician called our church a cult, which that was so wrong. It felt like an attack on religion. I know that’s when a lot of people decided to get involved. But you know in hindsight, I think he was obviously fed lies. And now you know, you’d just love to talk to him, show him the truth. 

What was the experience like getting involved? Was it a positive experience? 

I thought it was really respectful. Everyone was well behaved. Where I was, there was all persuasions there. We had the Greens, they were nice, they were mostly older people like old school greens. That was Labor and one nation. And they got on fine. 

Well, Arne, I know you wanted to speak about someone that’s often portrayed negatively in the media in Australia and that’s our senior leader, Mr Bruce Hales. How do those portrayals line up with the man you actually have met many times? 

Yeah, good question. I’ve had a lot of experiences with Mr Bruce Hales and his family, and I’ve never had any experience other than absolute care and compassion and wisdom. 

Well, finally, what’s the best part about being in the PBBC? 

You know, we’re all part of this assembly that we believe we hold separate for Christ, but. We’re all very much individuals too. 

It really comes down to our own links with the Lord. The Lord challenged Peter and said, will you also go away? One of our leaders said, Peter had 1000 reasons to go and one reason to stay. So it really comes down to our own links with Christ, our Lord and Saviour. 

Thanks very much for your time today. Enjoyed the conversation and thanks to all. That have tuned in and are listening along. Really appreciate your company. And make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. 

Hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is the next episode of behind the Plymouth Brethren and not so exclusive podcast. Today we’ll be joined again by Raymond Lee to talk about business and the way women from the Plymouth Brethren are portrayed in the media. But we won’t be just hearing from Raymond, his two daughters Courtney and Jordahna, have also joined us to talk about what life is really like for them. Well, thanks, Raymond, for joining again. Last time we had quite a bit to say about your growing up and your childhood, but you’re a father of four adult children and today you brought two of them along. Welcome to the podcast Courtney and Jordahna. 

Thanks very much for having us. I’m Courtney and it’s a great opportunity to be here and share some of our experiences of growing up in the church. I grew up with three siblings in the beautiful Blue Mountains and had a pretty full and normal life, we went to school and went to work and all, all of that and had a career working across a couple of different roles. Recently I’ve swapped the mountains for the city when I got married and moved to Sydney. I suppose when I looked back, the things that stand out for me is the people that we’ve met along the way and the places we’ve been everywhere from spending a relaxed afternoon on NSW coast to having a proper snowy Christmas time in the American Midwest. 

I’m Jordahna and like Courtney grew up in the mountains, a bit about myself, I love to get out and play tennis with my younger brother and going to the beach and travelling the world when I can. Me and Courtney were probably joined at the hip a bit when we were growing up so we had a fairly similar childhood, but when we got to work our careers went in different directions. She went into finance and HR was I started off in a creative role at a promotional company and then now I’m the head of operations for Australia in a global business and then recently  my role started to develop into more of a global role across the other countries. 

What about school life for you? What was that like, Courtney? 

Well, we both went to the local school in in Leura up until year three and then for the remaining years we were at OneSchool Global. We loved it at the time. It was a very supportive environment and very forward thinking. It wasn’t just about the content that you’re learning, but also the skills you take forward and the rest of your life. 

Did school encourage you to go on and do some further studies? Postgraduate studies? 

OneSchool Global is great at promoting the idea of earning while you learn and so while there, they offered a few extra units that were optional but would count towards a postgraduate course and once I left school, I started straight into my career, but at the same time I was doing a couple of courses in accounting and then when I actually went into a finance role later on that that set me forward and hugely so that was great. 

What about for you, Jordahna? 

Both postgraduate studies and real-life experiences were really encouraged even as early as 9 and 10, and it just always made sense. You know why start studying before starting your career, when you can do both and build a bit of experience along the way. 

Our church has been asked by the media, in the past and recently, whether it’s true that women in the workforce aren’t allowed to hold managerial positions or positions of seniority over others. But I think sounds like you’re living proof that that’s not accurate. 

That’s definitely not true. I in my last role I had worked a senior role in HR. And at the time there was a staff of about 100 people, but it’s not handed to you on a plate the minute you leave school. It’s something you have to work for and build your way up. 

Yes, definitely not true. You know, I have a team of direct reports that I managed, so I guess I’m really living proof that both women can and they do hold positions of leadership. 

The way Brethren promote the idea for their children that they should earn while they learn, do you think that helps to give them a bit of a head start in life?  

Well, I think it’s an excellent concept and I’ve heard that, you know, in our, in our family, there are four children. But it’s some life is short. Like it’s very, very short. So you know when they can come out, get into the workforce, get well paid positions. And then you know, obviously start their careers in advancing them, but then they. Learning and I think it’s critical of you know, that they do take advantage to get ahead as fast as they can. 

Another misconception we get often from the media is that the Brethren and their businesses don’t pay tax. Do you have any comments to make about that? 

Of course we pay tax. It’s the law. And you know, for me personally, I have been involved in helping the accountants prepare tax returns at work. And then I pay my own tax.  

Yes, it’s a normal part of life, but these claims do actually come back and affect the lives of everyday people. I had a customer who had been working with for a while, and all of a sudden they stopped responding on email or phone and finally replied that said, you know, we can’t buy from you any longer because you’re Brethren and you’re part of a cult and you don’t pay tax which… that’s your choice. And I thought, you know he’s probably thinking he was doing the right thing at the time? But it’s totally false and it just shows how they actually affect the lives and livelihoods of everyday Australians. 

And tax, you know, it’s what makes nations like Australia great because you have, you know, awesome healthcare, aged care infrastructure, roads, education, all those things come are funded by tax, you know, and. This simply as the law, so you know it’s we totally support and we do pay tax. 

Speaking of government, recently a number of politicians, including the Prime Minister, called the Plymouth Brethren a cult. How did that make you feel? 

It was a sad comment to be fair and I am respectful of the Prime Minister but it was, you know, it really was a, it was offensive. It was insulting. I mean, I talked to my wife and family about it. you know, “what can we can do?” And actually my wife and I decided to write to the Prime Minister. So we sent him a very respectful letter, you know, just letting know how we felt. We also extended not an invitation to come and see us in our House kind of make the family come and see us. And I’m sure he’d say pretty quickly we’re not a cult. Yeah, but I was sad. 

And what about the claims that women don’t get to make any choices in life? How does that make you feel? 

I got married earlier this year after working for 10 years and I chose to step back from my role to focus on our new home in Sydney, but that was my choice. I loved my job at the time, but I also loved my new role now and if I choose to do something different down the track or decide to go back to work, that’s absolutely up to me. 

How does it make you feel when the media paints the church as misogynistic or sexist? 

It’s sad, sad and frustrating, Lloyd. But you know what I’d say to them is women are respected. And encourage them to come and meet some of those women and girls.  See who they are. And I think they’d be very, very surprised. And I found in my experience that women are definitely respected. And I would say they respected above men. And you know, that’s how we were raised. And I look at, you know, with my wife and I, she we share everything. But you know, we made sure she’s got her own finances. So in case anything ever happened to me, she’s got more property than she has more property than I do. And, you know, there’s things in the household of things we’re doing. We’re deciding on if you know, if something she wants usually that’s what happens. Then you know I love my wife and my daughters, you know, intelligent people. They’re educated, they’re independent. And so if there was something I tried to force them to do, I’ve been in the ground pretty quickly, I will tell you now. 

So on that note, Jordahna, what’s dad like as a father? 

He really treated Courtney and I and our brothers as equals, always with care and respect, and he was always there to support us, support mum as well and he taught us some important things, respecting one another and working hard, saving our money and appreciating what he did have. He always really encouraged us to follow our dreams and achieve everything that we wanted, and I probably won’t say he was a good dad because it would go straight to his head. There’s two things that we never agree on and that’s his shocking, taste in music and NRL teams.  

That’s a bit rough. 

Well, finally I’d like to get your thoughts on what are the best parts about being and belonging to the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Ray, do you wanna kick off? 

With that one, there’s look, there’s a real sense of family in the church and there’s it’s such a positive and incredibly positive environment to bring up your children in you know, an area of safety and stability and security and there’s, you know, there’s such a sense of life. There’s a scripture, I think it’s in one Peter it speaks of. And we’ve been begotten again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from amongst the dead. And it’s so true. It’s a living hope that’s in the church. 

And for me, it’s probably that everybody is on the same level and it doesn’t matter who you are, what you do, what your background is, and there’s a real culture of care and respect and everybody just generally looking out for each other. And you know, like all good communities, it’s founded on good family values. 

It isn’t a checklist or dos and don’ts, but it’s more. It’s more our own personal link with Christ and principles and way of life that sets you up to make right choices. 

Thank you very much. The three of you for joining another episode of our podcast. And thanks to all that have tuned in. Really appreciate your company and make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. 

Hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is the next episode of behind the Plymouth Brethren and not so exclusive podcast. Today’s guest has an interesting perspective on life in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. And his experiences with those who chose to leave. Raymond’s father left the church when he was five years old after his parents divorced, he lost his mother to a rare disease when he was 12 and went on to live with his grandparents. He chose to stay in the church when he was a teenager and the adults in his life supported him and gave him the space to make that choice. And through his adolescence, the guidance of those within the church helped him to come to terms with the challenges he’d had to face. Raymond, thanks very much for joining the podcast. 

Thanks Lloyd and first I will say thank you for the work you’re doing and thank you for including me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Hi, my name is Raymond Lee. I live in the Blue Mountains with my beautiful wife Anna. We’ve been married, I think next year we’ll be married. 30 years. We’ve been blessed to have four children, 2 girls and two boys. We’re expecting our first grandchild next year which we’re very excited about and I’m a shareholder of a global business. I’m sitting on a few other boards, help a few people here and there, and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, and I love the Lord Jesus Christ.  

So you were born into the church and grew up in the Blue Mountains, as you said. What was life like growing up for you? 

Look, we had a very happy, I would say, blessed and happy childhood. I was one of four siblings, so I had two sisters and one brother and two were very competitive. We had fun. We were very close, we had 2 great parents, which I love them both. Unfortunately, when I was about 5, my parents separated and divorced. 

So it must have been tough to go through that at such an early age. How did that impact the family? 

It was tough, you know, like any family break up, you know, it did impact us all. My sibling and I stayed with my mother, who was in the church, and at that time my father decided, you know, he would leave the church. So then we would see my father on the weekends. He was always very good to us, very kind. He never criticised the church or and I remember my mother never said anything about my father or anyone in the church. They never, never said anything against my father at all.  

It certainly sounds like a fairly challenging part of your childhood growing up. 

It was in in some ways, but I think my parents, you know, they both tried to do what they could. You know, to make the best of it. And we had persons that, you know, did take an interest in us and care for us and had our back and some in particular I can think of. Sadly in 1995 my mother passed away. So my older sister went to live with her relatives and myself and my 2 younger siblings went to live with my paternal grandparents and they’re very kind, very godly people. They, you know, gave us good values, good principles and good teaching and sort of helped us, you know, on, on saving, on working hard, you know, trying to get ahead in life. You know, and to be really to be good citizens and we we’re pretty wild and you know, I feel like looking back, I feel terrible, you know, for them. I’m sure we gave them a lot of grey hair but they saw it right through and you know we’re here today because of them. 

While you were living with your grandparents were you’re still seeing your father? 

Oh yes, we were there for the next year or so. I mean, we’d go to our father on Saturdays and Sundays and we’d be with him for the weekend. He was always very kind to us.  

Did he ever ask you to leave the church?   

No, they never tried to influence it at all, and I was just thinking about it really, to be fair. And you know, understandably both my grandparents and my father, you know, made it clear to us that there was options for us to live with them during that period. I had to make a decision. I had to make a choice. And I was torn because I’d lost my mother and I and I loved my father. You know I love my grandparents and I love the church and I remember, you know, bouncing it off with my siblings and my sisters, you know, they were fairly solid. They wanted to stay with the church. My brother was younger. I think he was. He was about 9 or 10 and he was he saying, look, I’ll do whatever you do. And so it sort of brought me to that point where I had to make a had to make a decision. And I remember it was Friday the 3rd of October. I had to call my father and it was 1986, so I had to call out and say, listen, father, but we’re not coming anymore. We’ve made a decision and we’re going to stay with the church. And I think it’s best that, you know, we’re not coming on the weekends anymore. 

It was certainly at a young age to have to make such a tough decision in in life, but do the church try and influence you one way or another to make that decision? 

No, no, no one in the church ever tried to influence me and as I said, and my grandparents and my father as well, they didn’t. No one tried to influence me. But I think indirectly it was my love for the church. My love for the Lord’s supper that really was the biggest factor in the decision, so I had to look at what I had one option where there I wasn’t attending the Lord’s Supper which was at the weekends when we were going with Father. We weren’t getting the Lord’s Supper and then all the other choice I could be. That brought up and that that was really what formed the decision.  

And what about your father? Once you told him you’d made that decision, did he respect that decision?  

Yeah, absolutely. He respected it and, you know, and I’ve I looked back on it, it must have been super tough for him, you know, for to accept that decision. But what I what I’m grateful for now you know, is that he was he not only respected it, but he gave us space. He gave us space to, you know, to work through it, to, to make the choice to think about it, as did my grandparents. And then when, you know, he realised and accepted that that’s what he what he came to. He moved on it. 

Seems like you were empowered by those around you to make that choice in life. 

 I was given space to make that decision, that it was my decision as it was my siblings. And we made it for our own reasons and I look back now, you know, I’m nearly 40 years later. I’m grateful. And I know I’ve made the right decision. 

What’s your relationship with your father like now? 

He lives in another country, but I do speak to him, you know, very occasionally, but if you know there’s anything he needed, you know I’d be there anytime I care for him. I pray for and pray for his family.  

Well, critics of the church usually put the blame of family estrangements on the Church. Do you think that’s more common in the church than elsewhere? 

No, it’s not. It’s not. It’s far less, actually. I mean the reason is because there’s support. There’s help, there’s advice, this direction, you know, there’s so much there, whether it’s anyone’s going through difficulties, whether it’s in their marriage or whether it’s in their families or circumstances, there’s support there to help. 

What about when your mother passed, how did the church help you through that difficult period? 

Look, I was only 12 at the time, but I remember the awesome support and care and kindness there was for many, many persons that at that time. And I remember at my mother’s funeral in 1985, in May, Mr. John Hales was actually there for the weekend, and there was, you know, hundreds of people had been there after the service. And, you know, the congregation had left. It was there, you know, as a family, what he saying, our last goodbyes. And I remember turning around and Mr. John Hales was there, and he was just sitting there and. He was weeping out for, you know, tears coming in his face. But he sat there. I think he’d lost his own father when he was 9 and my brother was 8. So he’s probably looking at, you know, looking at us and. You know, we’re living what he’d gone through, but he then he came over to us. He just gave us words of encouragement and kindness and support and a river. You know what he did? He just the interest he took in us as we went through life. You know, as we grew up and and life went on, he just followed us. He followed us up, kept in touch and he just gave us good advice. Remember things like, you know. Saving money, not wasting money. He helped me. What? You know, on what career to choose? He helped me when I was trying to buy a house.  

Well, it seems like growing up and as an adult, you’ve never been short of a father figure or a good mentor in life.  

There’s many, many persons like you know, I can think of. You know in that we’re close to us, but then, you know, I think particularly Mr. John Hales and very good advice he gave me when I was getting married. I actually resented the fact that my father had that he had left us and, you know, sort of had probably a grudge, if you like. And. I never, never verbalised. It, but he must have picked it up and he said to me, listen, listen to me, he said you need. To understand, he said, you have to give honour where honour is due to to your father. And he said you have to respect him as your father and it was simple words. But it sort of helped me as I went through life and over the next year or two and we had children, mind to to understand that you know how important those words were and help me heal and help me forgive. 

And finally, Ray, what is it that you’d like people to know and understand about the Plymouth present Christian Church, that maybe they don’t understand at this point? 

I think Lloyd, first is that the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is a church. It’s not a cult. It’s just simple Christians  going through life and according to the Holy Scriptures, like thousands of other or millions of other believers, you know, in the world. And I think secondly, you know what you see is what you get that’s you know, you’ll see us in our yards or whatever, that’s who we are. We’re not, we don’t live in a commune in the Gobi desert, you know, we live in suburbia where what you see is what you get. And the other thing I’d love to say is the church is a system of care and it’s based on love and it’s based on support. There’s no one left behind. I think there’s a scripture in Acts 20. It speaks of, you ought to comfort the weak. And that’s what the church does. If there’s so many difficulties, someone needs support, they’re always there. And I’ve experienced that myself. And then, you know, that can be shared on. This another point is that you could say is the church perfect and you say, well, look at every you know every church or faith or denomination, organisation, they’re not perfect. But what I would say about the Brethren is they’re genuine, they care. And if they know they’ve done something wrong? They put it right. 

Well, thanks very much for joining us today. Raymond, really appreciate the chat. And I’d actually like to invite you back and maybe bring some of your family next time would you do that for us?  

Absolutely. But I’d love to come back. I can ask the family.  

Well, thanks very much and thanks to everyone that’s tuned in and is following along. Really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. 

Well hello and. Welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is the next episode of behind the Plymouth Brethren. Today’s guest is a young woman named Nolita Leflaive. She was born in the UK but moved to Italy with her family when she was one and half years old. She’s also a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and now lives in Rome, where the church community is relatively small in size. After graduating high school, she took a role with Zembr, a company that provides executive assistants across the globe. She set herself a goal to move up into a leadership role within three years, and impressively, she’s done it in just under two. She’s in Australia on a business trip, but has taken the time out of her busy schedule to join us for a chat. Nolita, welcome to the podcast, and welcome to Australia. 

Thank you for inviting me on, Lloyd. It’s great to meet you. 

Can you please introduce yourself 

Yes, I am 18 years old. I was born in the UK and as you said, moved to Italy when I was very young and my dad is English and my mum is half Italian, half English. And she grew up in Italy. 

So you work for Zembr. Can you tell us a bit about Zembr? 

Zembr is a company that offers virtual assistants, executive assistants, sales and bookkeeping assistance across the globe. And we’re a team of about 85 staff and the company’s currently seven years old. And what we essentially do is try to free up the executives to achieve more success with less stress by going into their business and freeing up their time so they can work on the business as opposed to in the business and really drive that growth in the company. It’s an excellent company to work for. There’s a very good culture and an extremely supportive team. The roles that we work in allow us to get a lot of exposure to business and learn how businesses operate behind the scenes in different industries. We’re working with different professionals across the globe and so there’s a lot of a lot of opportunities for growth and learning and it’s a challenging role that stretches you and yeah, I really, I really enjoy it. 

So what’s your role in the company? 

I so I started here from school in their creating careers programme which is a three month boot camp that they do for school leavers where you get knowledge in various areas of the business and you’re able to then choose that to go into the role that you love and I moved into EA after that programme and then a year later I stepped into the EA team leader position, so I currently manage a team of 22 assistants across the UK, Europe, America, Canada and Argentina and help them really grow and improve in their roles day-to-day. 

So this is your first role straight out of school. So how did you manage to progress so far already? 

Yeah. So I think being in the EA role was a really good opportunity for me. I learned so much about different companies. It’s an excellent role. You get a lot of exposure and learn a lot about how different businesses operate behind the scenes. I set a goal early on within my first three months at work that I wanted to be in a leadership position within three years. And I think setting goals is just so invaluable to that. I had a team that really pushed me and encouraged me to do that and then just have the discipline to execute those. It does take hard work and initiative. And I also think that constantly looking for feedback and actioning that is so key, whoever it comes from, just taking it on and working on improving, I think it’s key to us that age doesn’t matter and not that that holds you back, not fear of making mistakes, trying new things, getting out of your comfort zone and just not limiting yourself because of your age or your experience or whatever it might be. And  I’ve done a few further studies too, and leadership and accounts, I’ve got a couple of certificates in those and and I think also I’ve had a lot of support from my parents, so they’ve really always pushed me to grow and learn and improve more and just stay out of my comfort zone. So I’m always learning more. 

So you’re earning while you’re learning and studying and working at the same time. It can be quite a juggle. How do you stay focused? Doing all that? 

I think the main thing I’ve found is just sticking, keeping your goals in front of you and sticking to them just having that. Planned for each day and making sure that you’re prioritising things, I have travelled a lot for the courses I’ve been doing. Taking a few days off here and there, but just making sure that I really prioritise what what’s most important and focus my time on the things I want to achieve. 

So, you told me you were born in the UK, but you moved to Italy. Why? Why did your family move to Italy? 

So, my mum, as I said she I was Italian. She grew up in Italy and her mother had a heart attack and so my parents and we moved. We went. We travelled to Italy to look after her and at the time there were some community events in Italy too. And so we stayed on to support with those and and help out. And then from there we just ended up staying on in Italy. And then when I was about this was in the South of Italy and when I was about 6, we moved to Rome. 

Right. So how many Brethren are there in Italy. 

In Italy, there are 90 Brethren. It’s a small community, but we honestly don’t feel isolated. We’ve got we’re always getting opportunities to meet new Brethren, whether it’s travelling or having people visit us, visit our homes. And so we we’re constantly meeting new people, making new connections and we really, really value that opportunity. 

Interesting. And so where did you go to school? 

I went to school, I went to OneSchool Global for the majority of my schooling. Before then I went to kindergarten in public school in Italy from year three. I was in OneSchool Global. It was a fairly small school of about 8 to 12 students, and we studied the Italian curriculum. We had to pass the exam every year to make sure that we were, you know, progressing and we could move on to the next year and and we had some excellent teachers who really set us up extremely well for life and  as it was a small school, we had basically one to one teaching. So, we built good relationships with them and still  keep in touch now and pop in to say hello every now and then if we’re passing by the school. 

So as I said in the introduction, you’re currently in Australia on a work trip. Have you been to this country before? 

Yes, I have been here a couple of times and the last time I was here was about 12 and we also lived on the Central Coast north of Sydney for about 6 months when I was 8, so it’s awesome to be back. I’ve been here for a leadership meeting up and meeting with the leadership team, some other fellow team members, which has been awesome. 

And have you done quite a bit of travel in your life?  

Yes, I have been very fortunate to do a lot of travel with my Dad. He’s travelled a lot for business, so we’ve gone along with him and then to visit other Brethren around the world. And I think it’s been incredible. It really opens your eyes, and I think builds your confidence in your view of the world travelling and meeting, making new connections. 

How many countries do you think you’ve gone to? 

I think I’ve visited about 19 or so. 

Really? So what’s the favourite 1? 

It’s a difficult question. I I’d struggle to pick one, but I’d have to say my favourite country is probably Italy. I just love the history. You know, the scenery, culture, food. There’s so much variety. So yeah, I think it’s a great country. 

One of the wonderful things about being part of the PBCC community is the opportunity we have to entertain one another and visit other families and entertain each other. What’s your experience been of all that? 

Yes, I think it’s amazing and it really builds your confidence. You are confident and comfortable meeting new people because we have that common link and bond through our beliefs and our fellowship and and there’s just such a high level of trust amongst the Community even if you’ve never met someone before, there’s always a mutual connection, something you can link on with and just have a, well, have their contacts and friends and people you’ve met across the world, which is incredible. 

Probably one of the things you haven’t experienced, I guess is in some countries the media particularly seems fixated on the idea that the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is a cult. Does that sound strange to you when you hear something like that? 

Yeah, I’ve never really heard this mentioned before and it honestly doesn’t stack up for me. It’s not my experience, I love being in the church. It’s my life and I wouldn’t change it for anything. 

What about the experience of being a young woman in the church? Have you ever felt like you’re in second place before? 

No, certainly you certainly never felt any disadvantage. I’ve been given all the resources and tools I need to succeed, and I think that is the reason I’ve had any success in life is thanks to the support of yeah, the Community members and I’ve just always only ever felt supported. 

So where do you see yourself in the future? What’s next? 

I’d like to continue growing my career and my skills and my knowledge and continue improving. I also would like to work more on, you know, mentoring other young people to make the most of the opportunities they’ve got while they are still in school. To grow and make the most of it so that they can be set up for life when they leave school and. Keep travelling and enjoying life. 

Well, thanks, Nolita. Really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule. That’s it for this episode. And thanks to all that have tuned in, really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you really. Liked. It please give us a five star rating. 

Lloyd Grimshaw: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw, and this is the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so-exclusive podcast.

Music’s a big part of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church community. We sing hymns at every church meeting, so we learn to carry a tune through the sheer amount of practice we get, and many of us can play an instrument. We even have a music subscription service called Trove. It has a growing library of cover songs and originals by church members.

The driving force behind a lot of that music is Bill Baker. I’d like to welcome Bill and his wife Hannah to this episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren. Hannah and Bill, welcome to the podcast. Could you please introduce yourselves for our listeners?

Hannah: Thanks, Lloyd. I’m Hannah Baker, a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and a mum of three girls aged ten, nine, and four. I’ve worked in several roles in a couple of family businesses, and I studied small business management and marketing in my first job out of school.

Outside of work, I enjoy entertaining family and friends and being outdoors doing things together with our young family. I also enjoy interior design. I thoroughly enjoy being a mother, and although it is challenging at times, it is even more rewarding.

Bill: I’m Bill, father of three girls, as you’ve heard—so somewhat outnumbered.

I grew up in West Ryde, Sydney, and later in my youth lived in Argentina for eight years along with my family. That was an interesting experience supporting our church there. Today I’m CEO of Protector. We supply products to the construction industry.

I’m also involved in the MAST music productions initiative, which is our community music arm. We work with musicians around the world to produce music for our Trove music app, and also more recently for the Voices of the Brethren video series that’s on social media.

Lloyd: Eight years in Argentina—that must have been quite an experience.

Bill: Yeah, it was. It was a fascinating experience. It’s a great country with excellent people and a lot of potential. We formed a lot of great links there and friendships which continue to this day. It certainly broadened my horizons, and I got to learn Spanish as well as part of the deal, so that was a good life skill to have on board.

Lloyd: So why is it, do you think, that the Brethren community is so musical?

Bill: Look, I don’t think we’re any more musical than anyone else, but we do sing a lot together, as you alluded to—especially on Sundays. We sing about 20 hymns early on a Sunday morning together without any guidance or accompaniment music.

We also enjoy music when we get together socially, whether it be listening with friends or playing some instruments together.

Lloyd: So apart from singing, do you play some instruments yourself?

Bill: Yeah, I’m just an amateur guitarist and sometimes play the bass as well. I grew up playing music with my father and my brother, who both play the piano, and I always enjoyed singing and harmonising with my sisters and my brother. We still try to have a sing-along when we get together to this day.

Lloyd: What about you, Hannah? Are you musical too?

Hannah: No, I wouldn’t call myself musical. I did have music lessons growing up, and I was the drummer in a girl band during high school. Although I like listening to good music now, I don’t really play instruments much anymore.

Lloyd: A girl band—that sounds pretty interesting. Can you tell us about that?

Hannah: It’s a bit of a cringe to talk about now. We were called Pink Friday. I’m not sure where the name came from, but we had a lot of fun. We mostly practised in each other’s houses and then performed in front of several hundred community members at a time, mostly in the Hunter region but also in other parts of the state.

Lloyd: Did you compose your own songs?

Hannah: No, we were a cover band. We played songs like Mamma Mia by ABBA and You Raise Me Up by Josh Groban, to name a few. We definitely weren’t the most polished or professional band around, but it was really fun.

A lot of effort goes into performing a song, and it was great to get dressed up and play songs in front of a happy crowd. The experience taught me a lot of life lessons—working as a team, recognising that everyone has something different to offer, and then working together toward the same goal. It also gave me confidence to stand up in front of a large crowd.

Lloyd: What about your own daughters—are you going to encourage them to become drummers too?

Hannah: If they’d like to. It’s a bit hard for me to say no to drums in the house when I put my mum and dad and family through many, many hours of noisy drum practice.

Our girls do have piano lessons, and they’re interested in a few other instruments as well, which I fully support and encourage.

Lloyd: So all five of you—maybe one day we’ll see the Baker band?

Hannah: No way.

Lloyd: What about you, Bill—were you in a boy band?

Bill: No, just some family bands over the years. I remember one memorable time—it went a bit pear-shaped. It wasn’t long after we came back from Argentina, and we were performing a Spanish song called Si Me Haces Falta. I forgot some of the words, so I just made up a few lines. No one realised except my sisters. They weren’t impressed, that’s for sure.

Lloyd: That does sound memorable. Where did you get involved in the MAST initiative?

Bill: It’s a bit of a long story, but I’ve always been interested in music and love working with people. Early in 2020, I got involved in coordinating a global virtual choir in partnership with OneSchool Global.

It was a 3D audiovisual production involving over 500 students from about 120 campuses across 20 countries. That connected me with a number of musical people around the world.

Then COVID hit, and virtual collaborations became even more important. Musicians were suddenly having to record remotely and work together over platforms like Zoom and Teams. MAST was formed to support musicians like that. It grew from there, and it’s been inspiring to build a passionate team of volunteers and musicians working together for one common purpose—empowering amateur musicians to produce high-quality music for our community.

Lloyd: Tell me a bit more about Trove. What’s its purpose?

Bill: Trove is our community music app. It’s a platform where our community can listen to music that’s more in line with our Christian values. It’s mostly covers, but we have an increasing number of originals written by talented musicians in the Brethren community.

We have a wide range of genres—from rock and reggae to country and classical, and much more.

Lloyd: Hannah, as a mum, does Trove make monitoring content easier?

Hannah: Yes, it definitely does. I’m thankful for anything that helps me monitor what my kids are consuming. Kids are getting devices at younger ages, and it’s a global concern—not just one within our community.

Lloyd: Bill, your involvement sounds significant. Is this voluntary?

Bill: Yes, it’s a big volunteer role. It can be challenging to balance with family and business commitments, but it’s good to give back and give young creatives a voice and a purpose.

Lloyd: You’re also CEO of your own company.

Bill: Yes, it can be a stretch, but I decided several years ago to put aside a couple of hours each day to volunteer in the community. That’s something we’re very passionate about in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church.

Lloyd: The church came under focus for volunteering in the last Australian federal election. Did either of you get involved?

Bill: Yes, I did some door knocking and helped at a couple of street stalls in my local electorate.

Lloyd: What was that experience like?

Bill: I really enjoyed it. It was rewarding and interesting talking to a wide range of voters. We had constructive, respectful debates, and I found it worthwhile. That’s how I think the democratic process should operate.

Hannah: I hadn’t planned to volunteer, but I was pretty fired up before the election. When the Prime Minister called our church a cult on national television, it really hurt me. I knew it wasn’t true.

I asked Bill where I could get a Liberal T-shirt, and the next day I went to a pre-polling booth and asked how I could help. I did that as an Australian citizen, a mother, and a voter in the Bennelong electorate.

Lloyd: There were claims the Brethren were promised something in return. What do you say to that?

Hannah: It’s unfair and untrue. I believed in the Liberal Party’s policies and genuinely thought they would benefit my family and Australians. No one told us how to vote.

Lloyd: There were also reports of bad behaviour at polling booths.

Hannah: That wasn’t my experience at all. I actually experienced hostility because I was wearing a Liberal T-shirt. Everyone should engage in politics respectfully.

Lloyd: Another misconception is that women in the church aren’t treated equally.

Hannah: I completely disagree. I’ve never felt disadvantaged. I have choice and a say in every aspect of my life. I live a full and happy life and know many passionate, talented women in the church.

Bill: It’s simply not true. My wife has a strong voice, is respected, and is a director in our business. We’re a team.

Lloyd: There’s also criticism of our senior leader, Mr Bruce Hales. What’s your experience?

Hannah: The criticism is far from reality. The Hales family are kind, respectful, and generous. They’ve shown our family great care without expecting anything in return.

Bill: I agree completely. Their values are care and compassion. It hurts to hear negative things said that aren’t true.

Lloyd: Finally, what’s the best part about being part of the PBCC?

Bill: The global connections, the sense of belonging, the singing—but ultimately the safe and trusted environment to raise my children.

Hannah: I agree. It’s a wonderful community full of very good people, and that’s why we wanted to speak up today.

Lloyd: Thanks, Hannah and Bill. That’s it for this episode. Thanks for joining us and make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you’d like to leave us a five-star review, we’d love to have it.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is our next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren. I’m pleased to continue our conversation with Mrs. Joy Hutchinson and her youngest son Roland. Last episode, you’d remember they shared with us memories of Joy’s husband and Roland’s father, as well as Roly’s little girl, Gertrude, who were both taken from them suddenly and unexpectedly. Today we’re talking about Joy’s triumphant return to work and their views on the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Joy, after your husband passed, you returned to work.
Could you tell us a bit about that?

Joy: Yeah, well, it wasn’t easy, Lloyd. I’d been out of the workforce for about 32 years while I was happily married. But of course, I was very busy during that time bringing up my six children and educating them and, you know, entertaining friends and attending to all their needs. But going back to work, although it was difficult, it was a diversion and it was a good idea because it kept my mind off myself and gave me something to think about, I guess. I didn’t feel too triumphant to be honest! But yeah, what you say is right – it was very good. I was glad I had it. It was a good idea.

Lloyd: So what helped you through that transition?

Joy: I guess my work colleagues. Plus also during the year before my husband passed away I went to an evening college with my brother and did some basic computer skills. I was glad I had that. Plus, I had learned to touch type at college before I started work back in the day. Thankful I had that skill as well.

Lloyd: So, when you returned to work, where did you actually work?

Joy: I worked for Universal Business Team or UBT as it’s known, which was very interesting. As a matter of fact, I was probably one of the first girls to work for UBT and my boss lived in Bundaberg, but that was an interesting side for me. I hadn’t thought about that sort of thing. UBT is all about helping people be their best with training and business help. So, it was a good place to be and from there I transferred to OneSchool Global and I was there for 11 years.

Lloyd: For those that aren’t familiar, OneSchool Global is a global network of schools where the PBCC send their children for their education. What was the best part about working at OSG?

Joy: I’d have to say the best part was the team I was with. All younger than me. Not all community either. They’re lovely people, always helpful, always made me feel worthwhile, always included me in everything. Also my boss was he was a great guy. He was very caring and a community member. And I just really enjoyed working for them. I guess that’s the best bit. I was an EA for several years supporting various teams, head office in other states as well as being on the student support team to help those with learning difficulties. The last job I had was helping on the transport teams keeping the buses running.

Lloyd: So now you’re retired. What’s life like now? How many grandkids are keeping you busy?

Joy: Yep. I’ve got 16 grandchildren including little Gertrude who’s with the Lord in Heaven. I’ve got two married and I’ve got one great grandchild. I have several grandchildren still at school and some little ones who are babies or haven’t started school or aren’t at preschool or primary school. And I keep myself very busy helping my daughters-in-law that have the little ones. I try to give them each a day a week to help them with their preschool runs or have the children after school or just generally mind children. So that’s three days a week and the other two days I try to squeeze in some help for other people. I always try to do some baking or meals or something for lonely people and maybe offer a word of encouragement here and there to help them. I do definitely keep busy.

Lloyd: So over your lifetime, Joy, how have you seen the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church change – or indeed remain the same?

Joy: Well, our church has been going for nearly 200 years and I guess there have been some changes in the way we approach our principles, but our principles have stayed the same. We certainly still hold to what is known as separation, where we believe that our communion on the Lord’s Day morning is a basis for our fellowship with others.
And yeah, we stand by that. We’re just a bunch of people seeking to follow the Bible, live by it, and to be pleasing to the Lord. To go by one of the prophets in I think it’s Micah 6:8 said, “What do Jehovah thy God require of thee? But to do justly, love goodness, and walk humbly before thy God” which is what we seek to follow, and I feel I seek I try to follow as well. I guess our meeting formats have changed a little bit particularly over lockdown. We were very glad to be able to continue our meetings with Zoom which is a tremendous provision. We still do have some of our meetings by Zoom but it’s been good to get back together again. We missed the interaction with each other and also our organised entertaining has changed somewhat over the years but that just keeps everything fresh and lively interesting.

Lloyd: And what about you, Roland, when you hear sections of the media or indeed politicians call the church a secretive cult? How do you feel about that?
Roland: Yeah, there’s a part of me that I just have to laugh at it, laugh at them that persons that are, I must say, they must be misinformed. It is hurtful. I, you know, to echo what mom says, we’re just ordinary everyday Australians who read and seek to go by the Bible. We believe in what the Bible says. We don’t think we’re better than anyone else and nor do we look down on anyone else.

Lloyd: Well, the church often gets accused of encouraging members to cut off those that leave. Is that a correct accusation, Roland?

Roland: No, it’s not, Lloyd. I have cousins and friends that have chosen to live another way of life outside the church. I don’t hold anything against them.
I don’t have any animosity towards them and the path that they’ve chosen. I wish them all the success that they can achieve. However I chose, I felt that I had to stay where I felt I belonged – in the church. That was the path I chose that I felt where I was loved.

Lloyd: And finally Joy, the reason we started this podcast was to tell another side of the story to give viewers a contemporary look at what it’s like to be in the church today.
What’s some of your favourite parts of being in the church for you?

Joy: Thanks Lloyd. I fully understand that. It’s the company and the friendship and the good times that we have and the memories of those good times and some of my friends I’ve had for over 50 years, 60 years. I can go back and I’ve actually got friends today that I could walk up to and say hello and ask how they’re going and remember something from many, many years ago. Yeah, connections, I guess, isn’t it?

Roland: Yeah, I enjoy the connections and the friendships you can make within the church. You know you can meet persons on the other side of the world, persons you know have known nothing about and their families and their backgrounds and you can immediately form a link with them. The church members come from diverse parts of the world, from small rural communities and towns to large cities. And you know the friends and the acquaintances you can make – in my case it’s probably broadened my outlook on life. I do enjoy the social gatherings whether it’s in the homes or out and about and the church gatherings. But what more mum?

Joy: Definitely at church it’s great to go and catch up with your friends and you know when you had little children you can catch up with other mums that have got babies as well maybe going through the same problems that you’re having. When you get older you can talk to older people who are struggling as well like you are… maybe they can’t sleep and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, it’s very good and it wouldn’t matter what stage you’re at there’s always someone you can reach out to, you know, if you need help. Also at church, of course, you get direction and guidance for your life from the Bible. And that’s what holds me. That holds us together, our shared beliefs and values.

Lloyd: Well, thanks very much for sharing your story with us. We’ve really enjoyed it and hope the listeners have too. That’s it for this episode. Thanks for tuning in and make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is the next episode of Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. Today, we’re going to meet a mother and her son from a Brethren family here in Sydney. They’re well known and loved amongst the Brethren community and they’ve experienced sadness and loss, but also a lot of joy in their family life. We think they have a beautiful and unique perspective to share with our audience about their faith, the church community, and how it’s helped carry them through the tougher times of life. It’s my pleasure to welcome Mrs. Joy Hutchison and her youngest son, Roland Hutchison, to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Joy. Could you please introduce yourself?

Joy: Thanks, Lloyd. I’m Joy Hutchison. I’m 73 years of age. My much-loved husband passed away at the end of 2009, and I’ve recently retired from work, where I worked at One School Global.

Lloyd: And you’ve bought one of your six children here today, Joy. So, welcome to the podcast, Roland. Could you please introduce yourself?

Roland: Thanks, Lloyd. Yeah, my name’s Roland Hutchison. I the youngest of six. I lost my father when I was 19 years of age. I am married now – we had a beautiful little girl, Gertrude, who passed away at the age of 18 months. Now I’ve got two sons. I work as a sales consultant at a company that provides mobility and rehabilitation equipment. Been there now for 18 years since I left school.

Lloyd: Well, thanks for the introductions. Joy, you were born into the church. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood?

Joy: That’s right. I’ve got two brothers and two sisters, one older and one younger. I was born and bred… well, born and brought up in Beecroft where we had a big yard and enjoyed lots of outdoor fun. My father served in World War II, in New Guinea in the medics. So stories of the world war really coloured our lives when we were young. He also had many acquaintances that we used to hear about, some of which were prisoners of war during the Second World War. He actually introduced us to them and we heard their stories as well often talked about it. Other acquaintances too would draw out stories out of our father when we were together, which was interesting.

In our house at Beecroft, we even had goats at one stage because we had such a big yard, and I had some puppies… and was very much a very good family life there. We went on many roadie holidays where we drove around New South Wales and Queensland, Victoria and um was fun also to be together.
However, when I was in my early teens, we moved to Croydon to be closer to my father’s mother and brother. And that was excellent. We had a good life there. It was not far from the main church hall. We had a lot of people in, a lot of people coming and going and entertaining and people staying. And also life down there at Croydon near my young cousins was great. Really enjoyed those days. The best days of my young life.

Lloyd: That all sounds like a pretty perfect childhood.

Joy: It was until I was in about my mid- teens and I started to rebel against the church. I was not always a perfect church goer, that’s for sure.

Lloyd: So, what changed your mind and sort of drew you back to the church?

Joy: Well, it was the death of a young friend in a violent car accident. I was brought face to face with death. I realized that life on the edge was not for me. It was… I had to be all in. I also was surrounded by compassion and care and kindness of those in the community. I felt that life was too short to just live it on the edge. I had to get right into doing the right thing. Entertaining and looking after other Brethren and having people in just became everything to me. I was surrounded by happy Christians who were just doing trying to do what’s right and even they mightn’t have had much they were happy and that gave me happiness and peace. That was a turning point in my life.

Lloyd: So after you graduated from high school, what did you do as a young woman?

Joy: I went to secretarial college and learned shorthand and typing and a bit of bookkeeping. And then I went to work on various jobs in the city, for an insurance company and architects and then I came to the family business.

Lloyd: How did you meet your husband?

Joy: My husband Ian, he wasn’t actually born in the church.  His mother passed away when he was young, only three or four I think, and he was brought up by his godly grandmother who was one of one of us. She had moved from Denmark when she was 12 and came amongst the Brethren. A very real person and a wonderful influence on us. We always loved her, and I went to school with his sisters as well. So I got to know him that way. But also my young cousins and I… we followed him around to preachings that he was going to, my young cousins and I. Wherever it might be, Fairfield, Chatswood, Croydon, Ashfield. He played the guitar and he was a beautiful singer. Wherever we went people would hand him a guitar and say ‘sing for us’. He sang songs from Neil Diamond and country songs from John Denver and Glenn Campbell and even the Beatles. And we just had good time singing and playing with us. He even travelled as well. He had been to America and Canada and New Zealand and then he came back and married the girl next door.

Lloyd: So Ian was a great singer. What about you, Joy? Did you sing as well?

Joy: No, I didn’t try to sing. In fact, if I did sing around the house, he’d often look around and say, “Is that a storm brewing?”

Lloyd: So, you had six children together. It must have been a busy life. What was it like to be the youngest of six Roland?

Roland: Yeah, it was fun! It was interesting. I enjoyed it, even being the youngest. I had four brothers and one sister. Shout out to my older sister that must at times felt that she was outnumbered and stuck in the middle. I feel sorry for her having to put up with us all. We grew up, we battled it out in Western Sydney. We grew up in a suburb called Fairfield Heights. Attended primary school in Wentworthville. Both those suburbs are very multicultural areas, and we made a lot of friends who were you know Indian, Chinese, African, Eastern European, Middle Eastern. Was a wonderful mix of cultures in those areas. I played for the school football team and the school cricket team which was probably the highlight of school life. My classroom results probably showed that. But we had a lot of fun as a family, entertaining church members in our house. We loved traveling. Holiday time was always good times, good fun. Whether it’s Christmas or Easter breaks, we love traveling. Didn’t matter whether we were going to the south coast or north coast, interstate – it was so enjoyable. The further the trip, the more enjoy enjoyable it was.

Lloyd: What was the best part about having so many older brothers?

Roland: I loved it, loved the weekends. I was probably the annoying youngest brother. But I always enjoyed having a lot of older brothers that I could tag along with on a Saturday. We used to love, you know, going to a game of rugby on the afternoon on Saturday, whether it be suburban or grassroots or school boys rugby – it was all enjoyable. I do keep an eye on the on the Wallabies, on the national team. I do remember when the Wallabies last won the World Cup in ‘99 and when we won last won the Bledisloe cup against the Kiwis in the early 2000s. It’s been a long lean run for the Wallabies, but one day we’ll get success again. Hopefully that’s not too far away. But yeah, we used to love the rugby on Saturdays.

Lloyd: Yeah, very good. And Joy, it sounds like a very busy household full of fun, but you still had four children at home when your husband passed.

Joy: Yep, that’s right. I was thankful I did, of course. And I had lots of support from many people around, like all my friends and relatives turned up and others on the day. I had two married children as well and I had six grandchildren. We also had people staying in the house because we were entertaining for a church function.
But Ian… it was sudden. It was a very sudden death. Very unexpected. He died doing what he loved most, caring for others and enjoying them and having a good time.

Lloyd: It was such a shock, for that loss. What helped you through that?

Joy: I relied on my link with the Lord. I realised that he did it so he would get me through. And he did. He did. And also, the kindness of the church community. They were just right there when I needed it. Everybody was so caring and supportive and you know, whether it be taking me to sort out things at the bank or taking me for walks or organising my cupboards so that they were a little easier to care for as time went on.
You know I had so much to be thankful for in the community. I really did.

Lloyd: And what about the emotional support?

Joy: Well, to be honest, I had a little thing that I wanted to be strong in front of other people. I  felt that it was my sorrow. I didn’t think that I should make other people sad for what I was going through. So, I always tried to be strong when I was with others, basically for my children as well. But of course, I wasn’t always and many times I was overwhelmed and had to break down.
But yeah, there was always someone that could help me. There was always someone who said a kind word that was just what I needed, you know, like ‘it’s going to get better’ or ‘you’re not alone’ or there was always somebody that helped me and I’m very thankful for that. Very thankful for the community for the support that I received during that time.
Also people outside the community – I mean, even neighbours and other acquaintances that we had, everybody was very supportive. One woman in a shop, she broke down when I told her what had happened, and it was so comforting to think that other people felt your sorrow. Very thankful for it all.

Lloyd: And Roland, you recently suffered another unexpected and devastating loss.
Can you tell us about your little girl?

Roland: We lost our baby girl Gertrude in her sleep at the age of 18 months.
It was a massive shock. It was totally unexpected. She was a well child. There were no health concerns. She was a beautiful little girl. She learned to walk and started to put her first words together. She had a beautiful personality. It was was just something you just don’t expect and was Yeah. hope, you know, hope that it’d never happen.

Lloyd: And what helped you cope with that loss?

Roland: Yeah, it was the kindness and generosity that was shown to us, you know, within hours of hearing of Gertrude’s passing and then the days the the weeks and the months afterwards – thousands of messages and phone calls and emails and gifts that we received from church members universally  was overwhelming. The care and support and the love that was shown was so amazing. It helped us immensely through that tough period, traumatic period. We got, I guess we probably got a sense of peace knowing that we weren’t alone in the sorrow. There were plenty of other church members that have been through similar experiences of losing loved ones and they were always supportive and they still are supportive. It’s probably the best thing, one of the best things about being part of the community is that there’s always someone you can turn to in the hour of need when you when you’re feeling down, when you’re feeling blue. You can always talk to someone. And you know, not only in our community, but outside the community, our neighbours especially were caring and supportive. We live in a little cul-de-sac and there’s quite a sense of community there and they’ve always been a supportive neighbourhood. Especially when Gertrude passed, they were very considerate and very kind and very generous which was overwhelming.

Lloyd: So you got quite a bit of support from the wider community through that whole period.

Roland: Yeah, we did which I’m thankful for. My work colleagues and customers and clients in particular were kind and caring. The customers that had heard about Gertrude’s passing sent us well wishes and sent us gifts which was very generous and kind. In the job that I’m part of we have a I have a lot to do with the elderly and the disabled down including young children. It gives you a sense of compassion and admiration for the disabled and their carers, for what they’ve achieved. You can become well acquainted with different clients, with all your clients.
One client in particular, a lovely old lady that took an interest in my life after few visits with her and she kept up with the fact that I was married and had children and lost a child, and you know, I think two or three Christmases ago she gave me a bag full of Christmas presents. It was a big shopping bag. It was massive and full of Christmas gifts and goodies for us and the family. It was so generous and kind and practical.

Lloyd: So, I guess you enjoyed those with your two little boys?

Roland: Yeah, that’s right. Two little boys. They’re a joy. Our oldest boy, who’s nearly four, he’s a little bit more outgoing and social than our younger boy. He enjoys entertaining, enjoys having people come to the house, enjoys going out. His main interests currently revolve around anything to do with animals. He just loves animals, loves finding out about their habitats. He thinks things like snakes are fun to watch, which is not so great. He also loves construction sites. He seems to be developing an interest in cricket and rugby, which makes life fun.
Our younger boy is a little bit more shy and reserved. He’s more than happy to do his own thing. He loves just being outdoors and plodding around outside.
But both boys have different personalities. They’re both a lot bigger than what Gertrude was. But they’re just they’re great company. They’re great to have around.

Lloyd: So now you’re a father yourself. Do you try and emulate your own dad and the example he set for you?

Roland: Good question, Lloyd. As mom said, dad was born outside the church, joined as an 8-year-old. He lost his mom when he was young. I think he was about three. And then his father left him and his two sisters to the care of their to their grandmother. He had a tough early life. It was difficult, but he enjoyed his life. He valued his family and valued his connections that he’d made. I don’t think he ever looked back and had any regrets about his early life. We never had much money to come and go on as kids growing up. But dad always taught us that you didn’t need money to be happy. He taught us to he also taught us to try and meet people and value connections, value people’s stories, try and learn about persons and their backgrounds and you know find out about their stories. That’s what I’d love to instil into my boys.

Lloyd: Thank you. That’s all we’ve got time for today, but we do want to come back for another episode because we’ve got more to hear from your story. And thanks to all that have joined us today to listen and watch. Really appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And if you really liked it, please give us a five-star review.

Lloyd: Hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. There’s quite a bit of commentary online and other podcasts coming from persons who have chosen to leave the church and have spoken about some of the negative experiences they’ve had. They’re free to tell their stories of course and I’m not here to discuss them today. But what I would like to speak about is a story about someone that left the church and ultimately made the decision to return to the church. Let me introduce you to Harvey Edmonds.
Thanks Harvey. Thanks for joining the podcast.

Harvey: Thanks Lloyd.

Lloyd: Why don’t we start with a bit of an introduction and let you tell us something about yourself.

Harvey: I’m 41 years old. I’ve been married for about 13 years to my very faithful wife, and I’ve got four children: one boy, 11, and three daughters, 9, 4 and 3. We live in a small country town in central Victoria, and we have a manufacturing business there where I spend my day-to-days. I guess like all dads trying to work out a way to spend less time at work and more time with the kids. But you know, we have some great family times. We love entertaining whether that’s having family and friends in or we go to their place or whether it means, you know, catching up somewhere and having a barbecue and, you know, just doing lots of things with the kids, taking them to the park. I love fishing, going for bike rides, but we’ve got lots of good memories.

Lloyd: You and your family were part of the church. You belong to the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and you grew up in the church. You were raised there. What was your up upbringing like?

Harvey: I had an amazing upbringing. My parents showed me a lot of love and care and we had everything we needed and more. We had lots of adventures growing up as kids, whether that was with the cousins or family friends or whether it was schoolmates on the street. But no, we had a lot of good memories.

Lloyd: However, when you got to about 18 years old, you did make a decision to leave the church. Can you tell us what happened there?

Harvey: It was at the end of 2003 when I was 19 years old. I was a young kid, a bit difficult and I guess I couldn’t really see past the next day. I wanted to get out into the world and explore. I really enjoyed football, wanted to play football and wanted to travel and I was doing my apprenticeship at the time as a boiler maker, you know, which I really enjoyed doing. I guess at the time that’s what I thought freedom was at 18. But, you know, obviously I look back now at 41 and your head space is completely different to when you were 18. But you know, I made the decision to leave the church, and I take full responsibility for that. I read sometimes about some saying that they escaped the church. You don’t ‘escape’ the church. You’re free to go if you want to go.

Lloyd: How did the family react to that when they realized that that was your decision and you were going to leave?

Harvey: My parents were very sad and to be honest it was a horrible time for them, as our relationship would not be the same because of our belief in separation. I had several discussions, lots of discussions with them and other community members who tried to help me to see exactly what I was doing but to be honest you know I was 18 you know I had my ears blocked, and I didn’t want to listen. But no one was angry at me. No one was upset with me and no one mistreated me… but it was a very hard time.

Lloyd: So once you did leave the church, what happened then? What did you do with yourself after that?

Harvey: I was just a young kid. I just wanted to do boy things. I played a lot of footy and did a lot of traveling. Finished off my apprenticeship which I was doing and then I worked for a few years to save up before I went traveling and I spent about two years, I think it would have been, traveling through dozens of countries. Had some experiences, good and bad. One thing I will say and I don’t know why it happened at the time, but I carried my Bible with me wherever I went. Growing up, I had my beliefs and I still in one sense did, but I was nowhere near up to the mark of where I should have been.

Lloyd: There’s a bit of a misconception out there that once people do make the decision to leave the church that you completely cut off from any contact with your family.
Was that your experience or did you manage to keep in contact with the family still?

Harvey: I did have contact, absolutely. For the first year out of the church, I continued to work for my father. I had regular contact with them and other family members. And those in the community tried to reach out to me and would want to speak to me. But to be honest, I was rejecting their calls. I didn’t want to answer. It was all too hard to do that. And while we were in regular contact, I didn’t eat or drink with my family and in leaving the church I knew that this was going to be the case because of our belief in separation. I knew it would mean that, that would be the case, and I fully understand that and respected that, but it was very hard time.

Lloyd: What about when you were traveling? You travelled to dozens of countries overseas. I guess contact stopped when you’re overseas or did you manage to keep a bit of contact going?

Harvey: Obviously the physical contact stopped, but no, my father kept in touch with me. It would have been about 5:00, I think, every Friday afternoon, no matter what the time was wherever in the world I was, dad would call me and just check up on me, make sure I was okay. He probably wasn’t necessarily happy with exactly where I was or what I was doing, but he was touching base to make sure I knew that he was always there for me.

Lloyd: You’re off traveling all around the world – when did you start to kind of think or realize that you maybe you wanted to get back to the church? Was that sort of a gradual realization or was that a point in time that triggered that?

Harvey: There wasn’t a single point in in time when I made the decision to return. But I felt in the back of my mind that where I was, was not where I should be. And it probably even goes back to an early memory when I was at a footy club early on. And I remember one of my good teammates came up to me and he sort of said, you know, and he knew the community, and he knew who we were and he said, Harvey, you know, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here. And you know, he wasn’t being mean or anything like that. He was a good friend. But, you know, I think that idea, you know, probably stayed in the back of my mind for a lot of the time I was traveling.

Lloyd: So, it was more of a gradual realization that sort of came over you as to making that decision.

Harvey: I’d been out of the church for probably 6 years. I just remember starting to, you know, really reflect on my life. My life had been a bit of a merry-go-round to be honest. Every day was a Saturday, and every night was a Saturday night. It was busy and to be honest, I was felt like I was popping parachutes all the time to save myself out of situations. But I guess I just started thinking back to my upbringing and really thinking back to how great it was, the way I was raised within the church. And I guess reflecting on things that I’d seen on my travels. You know, it really drove home to me how great the position was, and the way of life is, the church is, you know, everyone really just caring for each other. But don’t get me wrong, I met some amazing people during my time away and I’m very thankful for them. They were very caring, very kind and you know, I’ll never forget those experiences and those times that I had with them. But I’d seen in my experiences in measure, everything that’s out there. And I guess I just started to reflect on my choices and my decisions. And one thing that sort of come home to me was, you know, how short life is.

Lloyd: Talk me through that whole process of choosing to return to the church. I understand it was, you know, quite the homecoming and in every sense of the word.

Harvey: It was probably about 12 months before I came home that I realized that’s what I wanted to do and I made that decision. I wanted to come home and go to mum and dad and walk in and tell them that I was coming back. But it was probably 2 or 3 months before I got home, I’d become really sick. I had quite a few infections in my lungs and in my ears and I was quite unwell. It was almost like my body knew that something was up and my body had really run out of gas. I remember when I got home I got me mate to pick me up from the airport. He took me to mum and dad’s, and I remember going in and knocking on the door and saying, ‘mum and dad, I want to return’.

Lloyd: And how did they react?

Harvey: They just reacted with overwhelming love and care. You know, there was no rejection. There was no looking down at me at all for whatsoever, for what I’d done. And I remember dad, the first few things he did, he helped me find a house and he helped me get a job and I had some debts, and he paid them out for me. But the whole point, you know, is I was never looked down upon. I’m very thankful for everything they did for me. But I knew I had to change my ways. That took time to get back in line with the church’s beliefs and the way that I wanted to live. And through that time, I remember, when I was coming back and there was a lot of boys and girls that I had grown up, gone to school with in the church and just catching up with them again and meeting up with them again was just an amazing experience. It was as if nothing had happened, the way they accepted me back in. It was through this time that my older sister was diagnosed with cancer. I knew at that time that it was God direct directly talking to me to bring me to be more true to my beliefs and I know that if this didn’t happen, I don’t know where I’d be today.

Lloyd: What about some of these mates you made in the wider community? Did you have to go and explain your decision to them as to coming back to the church and what it was going to mean?

Harvey: I did. I had a core bunch of mates and I went and spoke to them individually and sat down with them and talked about what I wanted to do and explained to them why I wanted to do it and they were very understanding and supportive of that, which I was very thankful for. They were very much supportive to me through that that time and they obviously understood that with this happening now the way we’ve been carrying on with life would change. But again, I really thank them for that time to be there and support and talk through that. And you know, it’s amazing. I still run into them from time to time somewhere and I’ll ask how their family’s going and they’ll ask how mine’s going and we have a bit of a yarn and we have a bit of a discussion and then we move on. And I guess that a lot of people might be able to understand that, you know, in their own experiences, you meet people, you grow apart, you find new friends. But no, I’ll be forever thankful for them through that period.

Lloyd: And I guess coming back to the church was obviously going to require a re-commitment to the pathway of separation as we would call it and all everything that you know would mean for us. Was that hard to re-commit to after eight years away from it?

Harvey: Yeah, it was it was a test for me. A real test for me and something that I had to work on. But, you know, I’d been brought up with understanding separation as a youth and I fully believed in it and I understand why we do it and I can understand from a wider community perspective why it is difficult to understand. But I guess I think it’s important that people understand that separation is based off scripture and it means a lot to us. You know, it’s really a bond that holds us together and it’s  what holds us together in our loyalty to each other.

Lloyd: So, when you’re outside of the church, you would have heard or read negative stories about the church. How did they make you feel?
Harvey: Yeah, it hurt because I know it’s not the truth. You know, there are some sad stories out there and bad experiences, but that’s not what my journey was. Mine was completely different to that. No church is perfect, but I guess what hurts me is those ones that are criticizing individuals in the church, they don’t actually know them personally and to be able to understand them. And that’s what saddens me on those points. And you know what I think about is, I left the church, and I decided to leave the church. And I think you know those that have left the church need to understand that that they left the position.

Lloyd: So do you think it’s fair that critics of the church call it a cult and and say that we’re brainwashing people?

Harvey: No, I think it’s the furthest thing from a cult. And if you think it’s a cult, you don’t understand what the what the church is. And you know, we’re brought up in such a way of love and care and generosity. I just think that there’s so many different personas in our church and that’s what makes it a really interesting way of life but I believe overall it’s a way of attraction and we choose to live this way because we want to.

Lloyd: With the experience you’ve had maybe, apart from what we talked about as separation, do you think the lifestyle amongst people in the church compared to the wider community is all that much different?

Harvey: Not really. We obviously have our meetings and our assemblies and our traditions, which are really special to us, but outside of that our everyday life is very similar to the wider community.

Lloyd: On that topic, what are some of the most bizarre things you heard about the church while you’re out there?

Harvey: I heard a lot of random ones over the years. I remember a mate come up to me once and he wanted to know whether we had a microwave growing up as a kid and I said, ‘Yeah, we had a microwave’”

Lloyd: That’s funny. Earlier you said that you did a lot of traveling after you left the church and you went to multiple countries. Now since coming back to the church have you had any further opportunities to do some traveling?

Harvey: Yeah, absolutely. Before I was married, then after I was married, then even with the kids you know we’ve travelled all over Australia and all around the world and it’s absolutely amazing to travel to these places. We only travel to places where there is a meeting because the meetings are so important to us but one thing that really sticks in my mind about traveling is you know no matter where you go you find a connection pretty much instantly whether it’s at the airport or whether it’s at the home of someone within the community. It’s really special. It’s such a system of care, nothing like I’ve ever experienced before.

Lloyd: And looking back on your time away from the church, is there anything you would have changed or do you think that whole experience kind of brought you to the point you are now and the pathway you’re back on now? Do you think that’s all been part of your journey as it were?

Harvey: Yeah, to be honest, Lloyd, I wish I didn’t have this story to tell. The heartache I caused, and that’s something that I live with. But I did and I guess that is what’s brought me to be who I am today.

Lloyd: You spoke quite a bit about your own upbringing and your younger years and now you’ve got your own family to bring up, your own four children, which you’re bringing up in the church. So what’s your reflections on that?

Harvey: I feel grateful for the way I was brought up and ultimately that is what led me back home because of the way I’d been brought up, because of the love and care that I’d experienced in my family and within the community. That’s what I hope that I can relay on to my kids, to show that same love, that care, that generosity and within the community that they can experience that.

Lloyd: And what is it that you really wish the wider community understood about the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church that they don’t necessarily understand?

Harvey: I think it’s pretty simple. You know, we’re just loving, caring, generous, practical Christians. And you know, I think people maybe need to meet us and understand us and then they can make their opinion.

Lloyd: There’s obviously a lot of volunteering done within the church on many fronts and I understand you make quite a bit of time for volunteering in your life.

Harvey: Thanks. Yeah, I do Lloyd. It’s absolute privilege to be to be part of it. It’s a way of showing and caring for the wider community and within the community. I’m part of the team that do new builds and renovations in our schools right across Australia and it’s just amazing to be part of these teams and working with the teachers and the principal, the students and builders etc to just create these great spaces for the kids and it’s very rewarding. I also do a little bit for the venue management side to help coordinate where we have our meetings, the setups. There’s a lot of work involved in that but you get to work with a big team, and you’ve all got a goal together and it’s really rewarding and fantastic. I used to do a bit in the RRT. Probably don’t do as much as what I used to do now. But it’s so rewarding, you know, whether it’s on the front line of a bushfire and you’re serving the firefighters food and drinks, you know, but it’s a thrill to be part of.

Lloyd: Well, thanks very much, Harvey, for sharing your story. It’s certainly been an interesting discussion and a different perspective. So, I really appreciate you coming along today and thank you to everyone that’s tuned in today to listen. And don’t forget to like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Hello, I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind the Plymouth Brethren, a not-so exclusive podcast.Last episode I introduced you to Eloise Holder. This episode I’m welcoming her back along with her husband Owen and they’re going to share some of their experiences in how the church community helped them through some pretty difficult parts of their life. Welcome to the podcast, Owen and Eloise. Why don’t we start with an introduction from you, Owen, tell us a bit about yourself.

Owen: Thank you, Lloyd. It’s good to be here. I’m Owen. I was born in Bahía Blanca, Argentina, and I lived there until about 8 years ago when I moved to Buenos Aires, where I’ve been living since. I work as the operations manager and the HR manager for Zembr, which is the business that I run with my wife, Eloise.

Lloyd: You’ve got quite good English for an Argentinian. Have you always been in Argentina?

Owen: Yes, I have. I was born there. My first language is English, though. I was born to an English mom and an Argentine dad. So, my family actually arrived in Argentina back in the 1890s as my great-great grandpa Holder. He moved over there as a young man and then a few years later he actually got converted and joined the Brethren, who had started the position there roughly 10 years earlier.

Lloyd: Well, it’s well known to anyone in our church community that you didn’t have the easiest start in life right from an early age. Are you happy to share that story with those that aren’t familiar with it?

Owen: Yeah. So, I was the eldest of four boys to my parents. Unfortunately, when I was just before I turned six, they passed away in a in a car accident. So my dad needed to travel to Buenos Aires for work, for business, and it was actually also a good opportunity for the family up there to meet my youngest brother who was only 12 weeks old. Then halfway up there, it’s about a 6-hour drive, halfway through the journey they had a very violent accident and sadly all five of them passed away. So I wasn’t actually in the vehicle. I had stayed back home in Bahía Blanca because we only had a 5-seater car. So I stayed back with my grandparents in in Bahía Blanca.

Lloyd: So you’re only very young at the time as you said, but do you remember much about the support from the church community?

Owen: Yes. So I remember that night a lot of community members coming around to my family’s house, my grandparents’ house and supporting the family and praying with the family and you know sort of pouring cups of tea and doing what was needed to help at the time. I didn’t actually know… I knew there had been an accident, but I didn’t know the extent of the of the tragedy. It was actually my grandmother who had to break the news to me the next morning. So there’s one thing from that night that sticks in my mind. I don’t actually remember it, but I’ve been told since there was some the local community members who went out that night, at 3 am in the morning to, you know, to get the coffins for my family. So one person went out to get them, buy my parents’ coffins. And then another group of other people actually had to go and make my little brother’s coffins as they couldn’t get the coffins of that that size at that time.

Lloyd: So after you lost your whole family, who did you go to live with then?

Owen: I went to live with my grandparents from my mum’s side. They had a very young family. My mom was the eldest of the family actually. So I just sort of slotted in to their family as the new end of family brat. I was very close to my uncle who was only 11 months older than me. He actually then sadly also passed away about 5 years later in a in another car accident.

Lloyd: And you were living in Australia obviously at the time Eloise. Do you remember the accident?

Eloise: Yeah. I was only nine and obviously you only understand so much when you’re a child but I do remember hearing about it and our parents telling us about t this poor little orphan over the other side of the world. Many mealtimes we would pray for the family and think of Owen and I remember get kneeling down beside the bed and praying with our mom for Owen for many nights thereafter. So yeah, I think we all heard about it in one way or another.

Lloyd: And what’s it like, Owen, to know that there was persons all around the world that were looking out for you, thinking about you, including your future wife back in Australia?

Owen: No, it was very special. I have very special memories of those times. I’ve received a lot of a lot of letters, a lot of notes, very kind notes, kind gifts and presents from different ones around the world from different community members.
They’re very kind to me. I remember sort of presents turning up. If there was if it was a toy or something, there’d be two of them. One for my uncle who was obviously only not even a year older than me. Which is very very thoughtful of everyone. There’s one present in particular which also sticks out is kangaroo skin that I got from some Brethren in Australia signed by sort of 100 or 200 odd Brethren.

Lloyd: So how did all that support from the community connect with your own personal faith to help you through this difficult period?

Owen: Yeah. So, I’m honestly not sure where where I’d be without that support from the church and without my faith, which is obviously also thanks to the church and then my link with God. Obviously God might put us through certain challenges, through certain difficulties which test us to right to the to the core. But as we turn to Him in our need and dependent on him and turn to Him in prayer and get closer to Him in His grace and mercy, He comes in for us and you know helps us overcome the challenges and the difficulties and gives us the strength to bear the pain.

Lloyd: So despite all the challenges you went through, you did complete your schooling. What did you do after you graduated?

Owen: Yeah. So I completed my schooling at one school in Barbanka and then the opportunity when I left school the opportunity came up to move to Buenos Aires to join the family business there in a sales role which I thoroughly enjoyed and so I lived there for a few years in different roles across the sales team.
And then one day in September 2019 after spending the day at a trade show downtown Buenos Aires I met up with some friends and family members at a at a burger restaurant and met a certain Eloise.

Lloyd: So what do you remember about the first meeting?

Eloise: Well, I remember he was very blonde, quite good-looking I thought at the time. I still do. And really my first impression was that I thought he was quite rude because he didn’t introduce himself to the overseas guest.

Owen: I was shy.

Eloise: Okay. Apparently shy. But we did some talking at some point through the evening, I think we were sitting together when we had our burgers. Can’t really remember that part very well. But I think where the the real spark started to fly was over some ice cream. So Argentina is quite quite famous for its helado which is very delicious ice cream. But we went into the ice cream shop, and I obviously didn’t speak the language. So, I thought it was quite an ideal opportunity to you know play the helpless female and I was, ‘oh help me choose my ice cream and whatever… and yeah sure oh I’ll just have whatever you’re having’. Terrible life choice. So he promptly ordered grapefruit ice cream, which – not sure if you’ve ever tried it, but it’s definitely not that good. His controversial taste buds are definitely a trend that’s continued on throughout our marriage. We  were in Italy last month and he thought it would be a good idea to get me to try olive oil ice cream. Also not a great flavor. But that’s my first impression. Yeah.

Lloyd: So after the sparks flying over grapefruit ice cream, uh, Owen, where did it go from there?

Owen: Yeah. So after that we had a few more evenings together and got on quite well and sort of kept in touch. Then a few months later, I traveled to Australia to see some family there and we actually met up and she met some of my family, I met some of her family and then a few months after that she actually traveled over to Argentina to come and sort of see the place again and meet the rest of my family. And yeah, we sort of decided we definitely quite liked each other at that stage and wanted to sort of build a a new life together. Then unfortunately about 4 days into her trip, the pandemic struck – COVID 19. She had to cut her trip short and quickly get back home to Australia before the borders closed. So then after that the began the the joys of a of a long-distance relationship.
Lloyd: So, what was it like trying to maintain a long-distance relationship with a pending pandemic?

Owen: It certainly wasn’t easy, but we kept in touch through obviously sort of chatted regularly and had phone calls and had the odd Zoom call too and sent each other a few letters every now and again and presents in the in the post. Certainly wasn’t easy, but we sort of got through it and definitely I think helped strengthen the relationship. I think it was it was good for us.

Lloyd: What about for you, Eloise?

Eloise: Well, the long-distance relationship, I guess, was was really only one part of it because then obviously at some point we kind of decided that as I mentioned in the previous episode, it was clear these borders weren’t opening anytime soon.
So, we decided, I’d head over there and get married. Then started the process of getting all the approvals to leave the country and enter the other country. And then I headed over there on one of the empty COVID repat flights. I don’t know if you remember those, but there was about 10 passengers on a big international jet. I think we had almost one hostess each to ourselves. It was a very bizarre experience, empty airports. Headed over there with my wedding dress and my papers and somehow managed to get into the country and then I started two weeks hotel quarantine. So it was all a bit of an interesting experience from start to finish really.

Owen: Once Eloise completed her quarantine, we got married. We had a little wedding, a very sort of simple occasion in a family member’s house. Just a few family members. Obviously, there was restrictions on the amount of people that could be there. So it was it wasn’t a huge event, but it was a very very enjoyable and memorable day, wasn’t it?

Eloise: Yeah, it was. It was it was a really nice, small family occasion. And I think we definitely enjoyed it very much given especially given the difficult COVID restrictions and circumstances.

Lloyd: We’ve spoken about the losses that Owen endured, but recently you lost a loved one yourself.

Eloise: Very sadly, my own mom actually passed in a car accident earlier this year, end of January. It was obviously a massive shock to us all and it was definitely… obviously the months following that and this year’s probably been the most difficult period I would say of my life so far. But it’s definitely also been a period where I’ve leaned a lot more heavily into my faith and learned to to lean on God. And I think it’s a period of life where I’ve learned firsthand, I guess, the same as Owen, the peace and the healing that comes comes from God in these really difficult periods in your life. Following that, obviously, all the family is all spread over the globe. At the time, I was in Argentina. My younger sister was in Los Angeles, where she currently is living, my younger brother was at a wedding in Western Australia. So we all obviously had to quickly fly home and got there within a couple of days to attend the funeral and and sort out, you know, all the things that unfortunately go with these situations.
Lloyd: I certainly remember it and I was certainly sorry for the loss – a shock when we heard about it. Once you returned to Australia, how did the business and the church community support you through that?
Eloise: It was an incredible experience. It’s probably something I don’t think any of our family will ever forget in a hurry. As far as the business went, obviously at the time it just it barely featured. It wasn’t even a priority. But I remember my sister (obviously I mentioned my younger sister’s in the business with me), Owen and I were all in part of the leadership team. So, it was a large portion of the leadership team to disappear overnight, but we literally just texted the rest of the team. We’ve got several other extremely capable women on the team and said, ‘Look, sorry, we’re off. That’s it. I don’t know how long it will be but good luck’. They stepped up and took over with the help of our board who stepped in and helped them make difficult decisions, advised them, that kind of thing. But on a personal front, I remember within 2 hours I had over 500 messages from church members all over the globe, people that had been through similar things, people I knew, people didn’t know. Just incredible really the outpouring of support and love. And following that, obviously in the difficult days leading up to the the funeral and beyond, the family received gifts, you know, to help cover funeral expenses, flowers, all sorts of all sorts of things. And just, you know, even practical support, people dropping in to do the housework, help with the washing, all that kind of thing, help us set the house up too, as it was just obviously my dad and my brother left at home. Even since then, there’s been church members that have continued doing their washing for them every week, cooking the meals every week, that kind of thing. It’s just been absolutely incredible. I can’t imagine going through an experience like that without having the church behind me quite honestly.

Lloyd: And how did Owen support you through that difficult time you’ve just been through?
Eloise: Well, I think obviously the tragedy and sorrow that Owen’s been through throughout his life uniquely equipped him to to help me go through this experience. But I think the other thing is like obviously over the four years that we were married while while my mom was still with us, he developed a really a close relationship with my mom. So he was obviously suffering yet another loss at the time. But he was just extremely strong and supportive and really I guess using his past experience he helped me get through it and be able to see a light at the end of the tunnel and a way forward and and figure out how to cope with life again and get through that grief. I just feel extremely lucky to have had him as my husband and we definitely became much much closer than ever both in our faith and as husband and wife and friends throughout the experience, wouldn’t you say?

Owen: Yes, 100% correct.
Lloyd: Well, one thing you didn’t have to experience in Argentina was the false narrative that’s often peddled out here in the media that the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is a cult. How do you feel about that when you hear it?

Owen: Well, I’ve been very fortunate to grow up in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church and it’s certainly not a cult. It’s a community that really cares for for those that within it. At the end of the day, church members are much the same as as those in the broader community. We share similar values and similar goals, too. We’re just people that want to get ahead in life and want to help others get ahead and overall just contribute to a better society.

Lloyd: And how do you feel about the way the church is portrayed?

Eloise: I mean I’m obviously aware of the portrayals that are out there, but from my personal experience I just feel that they’re unfair and and very wide of the mark. They definitely don’t represent the the community and the church that I’m a part of at all.
Lloyd: And one of the other misconceptions that’s out there, Owen, is that marriages amongst the Plymouth Brethren are pre-arranged. Is that what you experienced?

Owen: No, certainly not. Probably would have been a lot easier if it had been arranged for us. But I I chose who I wanted to marry. Eloise can speak for herself.

Eloise: No, I mean, it’s laughable. I can’t imagine anyone choosing to arrange a marriage with people from opposite corners of the globe. But no, I definitely chose who I married and I’m very happy in it.

Lloyd: And finally, Owen, I know you wanted to speak about the way that someone out here is negatively portrayed in the media. That’s Mr. Bruce Hales. How do those portrayals line up with the man that you’ve come to know?

Owen: Yeah, this is one of the things that hurts the most. It’s certainly not fair, it’s extremely unfair the way the media portrays him. The man that I know is a lovely man, very dear man. He’s very kind and caring and extremely compassionate. Just in my own experiences, you know since losing my family as a young child, he’s always been very very kind to me and shown a great great interest in me and in my situation. And I think he’s always been a very unselfish man putting others interests always before his own. I have great respect for him and and find it deeply upsetting the way that the media portray him.

Lloyd: Thank you so much both for sharing your stories. It’s been fascinating and you both suffered profound losses at early ages, and you’ve come through it with your with strength and faith. It’s certainly been inspiring to listen to those stories and thank you to everyone that’s been listening along. Certainly appreciate your company and we look forward to your company on the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and this is Behind Plymouth Brethren, a not-so Exclusive podcast. There has been a lot said about women in the Plymouth Brethren. Critics of the church claim that women are treated not much more than housewives and baby makers. Some sections of the media actually accuse the church of treating women like second class citizens. None of this is true, of course, but frustratingly, the myth still persists. That’s why I’m really looking forward to introducing today someone that’s intelligent, successful, and driven, a woman, and a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Her name is Eloise Holder. Thanks for joining, Eloise.

Eloise: Thanks, Lloyd. It’s good to be here. So, I guess a quick introduction about me. I’m 28 years old. I was born in a small town in South Australia, commonly known as a blue lake city. I’ve been living in Argentina in Buenos Aires for the for the last four years. I’ve just this week moved back across to Australia.

Lloyd: So what’s prompted the move back to Australia?

Eloise : I own a global business. It’s called Zembr. And I’ve just shifted back here for 6 to 12 months to work on a few big business projects, exciting projects that we’ve got coming up.

Lloyd: So you were born into the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. Tell can you tell us a bit about your upbringing and family life?

Eloise: Yeah, sure. So, I guess we had a fairly modest upbringing. I was one of five children in a in a bigish family. I had two sisters and two brothers. Money definitely didn’t really grow on trees where I was from. I had a mother that had very old school values, I guess, brought us up well, but I think one of the overarching themes in our growing up lives was, you know, if you want it, you’ve got to work for it.

Lloyd: So, some of those old school values of around money is that where the entrepreneurial spirit comes from?

Eloise: Yes. My mother definitely had an entrepreneurial streak, and she was always working in throughout our growing up years when we’re younger, when we’re a bit older as well. Despite that she would often spend a lot of time with us kids when we were when we were smaller, doing different sorts of business make-believes or play.  I remember in school holidays she’d help us set up some kind of little activity. On one school holidays, we ran a car wash. I think it was called the freaky fries from memory. Another school holidays it was selling chocolates. And I remember later in my school years, I thought it was a good idea (and she encouraged this one but it probably didn’t turn out so well) to be breeding chickens. I found out the hard way that a dog can deplete the crop very quickly.

Lloyd: So some of those values did they carry across into your school life?

Eloise: Yeah, definitely. I think throughout my latter schooling years, high school years, I was definitely always very goal driven. I remember I was always sort of striving to get the highest score, probably a bit competitive. and I had a specific goal throughout my year 11 and 12 senior years to beat my older sister’s ATR score, which was 95.59 and to achieve state dux. So that was something that drove me a lot. And my teachers always… I had a specifically a unique history teacher, and he always used to laugh that I just scraped in. I got a 95.95. I did achieve both of those, but I think it’s something that set me up for my latter life in terms of, you know, always wanting to hit the next goal and be fairly competitive and goal driven.

Lloyd: So once you left and graduated high school, what did you do next?

Eloise: I worked a full-time local job. it was I think the first one was in estimating and admin. I moved around a little bit in the next few years. I did spend a bit of time in actually a bit of production management. I think one of my last jobs was in architectural product sales. I used to… I was I think I was 19 at the time …and my boss thought it would be a good challenge to send me up to the city which was, the big smoke for us in a little town, Adelaide… to do a presentation. So, I think a lot of those different experiences, I got a broad experience across all the different areas of business throughout those years in one way or another and definitely those challenges sort of gave me the experience and confidence probably that I needed for the next step in my career.

Lloyd: I think you said in about 2018 you told a friend about a business idea you had. Can you tell us about that moment and how it all grew from there?

Eloise: Yes. So, my job wasn’t going too well at the time, and I’d popped over the channel to New Zealand for a short vacation. And on that vacation, I actually I met up with somebody who was a virtual assistant. And at the time, it was a bit of a foreign concept. Really didn’t exactly know what that was. But a bit later in the trip, I’d sort of been thinking about it. I met up with a friend of mine who had a very entrepreneurial streak and we got chatting and I was sort of saying, “I’ve got this idea. I think I’d like to start a business. You know, this virtual assistant thing, it really has merit. Like, imagine, you know, if you could create a whole lot of part-time jobs for young people that they enjoy actually enjoy that are remote that don’t have to go up to the cities if they don’t want to. And also at the same time, you know, I’ve seen a lot of my mom and dad obviously had a business. I’ve seen a lot of small family businesses and, you know, that that need part-time support but maybe can’t afford full-time staff.
So, I thought like it’s just an obvious solution. Why is there not more of this? We chatted it through and yeah, they got a bit excited about, “oh, this could be great. you know, this could be huge, it could be global, you could have 40 staff, 50 staff”. [and I was thinking of] Just a job for me, maybe for my little sister when she comes out of school. That’s all. Anyway, as we chatted and like, okay, right, next step is um first five steps, we wrote it down on a servette first, pick a name, do a logo, create a pitch, etc. etc. And yeah, that very cliche movie style beginning was actually where it all started.

Lloyd: Very interesting. So 7 years on from the servette, what’s Zembr up to now?

Eloise: Well, the logo is exactly the same as we sketched it on the serviette that day, funnily enough. But we’re a virtual assistance agency now. Our services have levelled up over the years and we have a very strong focus on helping executives achieve more success in business with less stress. So, we do that through a few different services, executive assistants, bookkeeping, business development. The team is spread all over the globe. We’ve got team members in New Zealand, UK, Caribbean, Argentina, US. And there’s about 80 staff, 78 of which are women. Apologies to the two men on the team. So yeah, it’s been a bit of a hectic ride.

Lloyd: You said you envisioned working with your little sister. Did that part of it work out or…?

Eloise: Well, actually, funnily enough, over the seven years, I think five out of seven of my family members have been involved in Zembr’s journey um one way or another. My sisters have both played a really big role. My older sister, she joined at the start. She helped me really get things off the ground and my younger sister still works with us today in our leadership team. They are very opposite to what I am thankfully…for them. But I’ve always sort of been the visionary, idealistic one. I come up with a thousand bad ideas a week, they’re the ones that have always, you know, helped talk me off the ledge and say oh, this one’s good, that one’s not so good. And, you know, been my execution team, which I definitely don’t think I would have got to where we have today without them.
Lloyd: It sounds like you had a quite a bit of support from the family. What about the church community?
Eloise: Yeah, 100%. So, alongside my family, funnily enough, my first client actually was UBT. I cringe thinking back now. I sent my first ugly pitch document to the to the general manager of UBT from my Gmail address. I didn’t yet have a domain or anything like that. But they took a chance on me and gave me my first job actually. But I think most importantly from there earlier on I was advised you know to think big think as a big business from the start, even though it’s difficult, and to get myself a board of mentors people that I could refer to, that could train, help, coach. I just reached out to three random church members – one was from England, I think one was from New Zealand and one was from Australia and they all took a chance on a very naive 21-year-old that really had nothing to show. Over the next three years they gave me pro bono support. We’d meet every fortnight, every month, whatever I needed, for them to review the progress, hold us accountable, give me advice, you know, help me keep going through the difficult patches. I definitely would attribute a lot of Zembr’s success today to that advice and support.

Lloyd: I guess Covid impacted all of us one way or another. Did it impact your business?

Eloise: Yeah, it did actually. So basically overnight, well within a week, we lost 70% of our business. It was it was a massive hit. We had about 30 staff at the time so we couldn’t exactly just close doors but I guess we were a pretty easy cut for people that were cutting expenses. So our mentors advised us to pivot, you know, come up with some new ideas, take advantage of the opportunities that come with a challenge. As a team we got together and we actually created a series of what we called pandemic courses. We did a photography course, and I think there was a cooking course, and I can’t really remember what else… but really it had nothing to do with our original line of business. They generated enough revenue to get us through those difficult months and then from there we picked back up and we actually it was a bit of an opportunity, or a lucky streak, for us in the end because obviously the pandemic kind of forced the progression globally into remote working and so people adopted the virtual assistant idea a lot quicker than they perhaps otherwise would have. From there actually took off about 3, 4 months later and it’s been on the up ever since.

Lloyd: So your business has kind of taken you all over the world. What’s some of the most memorable parts of those travels?

Eloise: Well, I feel very blessed to have travelled quite a lot over the last seven years, which has definitely been because of the business. Been to many different locations. But I think probably I’d have to say the most memorable was a trip to Argentina or Buenos Aires in 2019, which is where I met my husband Owen.
Lloyd: So, we’re going to meet Owen on the next episode, but you ended up moving there, didn’t you, to Argentina?

Eloise: Yeah, I did. So, obviously the pandemic hit only six months after we met. So we we started a long-distance relationship shortly after that which obviously wasn’t terribly easy but in the end we sort of felt the pandemic, like everyone did, was going to go on forever. The borders were closed. We were anxiously checking the news every month, every week actually. So eventually we realized that the only way it was going to work was – you know, at that stage we were sort of planning to live together anyway – to just get on, get married, leave the country, get married over there and stay there for good. So  I went over there by myself and we had a small family wedding and started our lives together.

Lloyd: So you moved right over to the other side of the world. Did it help to have the church community when you got to Argentina?

Eloise: Absolutely. I I look back on those early days and I mean moving country for anyone is a big challenge. But I think moving to a more developing country, a country that speaks another language, you know, there’s just so many challenges that that that came with moving to Argentina, security challenges, different things.
And I think one of one of the biggest blessings in that move was that there was a church community of about 160 church members in Buenos Aires, and a lot of them over the years had moved to Argentina themselves and acclimatized and, you know, been through that process. So they fully understood what you were going through and the different phases it sort of took. And the support… like them stepping up and understanding and even just having that, you know, that base of English-speaking church members for the social interaction… it was just a huge help in in a time of a lot of mental strain.

Lloyd: Still even with all that support it must be a pretty difficult thing not only to move to a new country but to run a business in a country where you can’t speak the language.

Eloise: It was a huge undertaking. It definitely had its challenges. In fact, every day was a challenge for the first 6 to 12 months. I always like to say to people that ask about it that it’s kind of like going back to being a 5-year-old if you’ve been an independent person before that. You suddenly can’t order potatoes, you can’t go to the chemist, you can’t you can’t really do anything by yourself. You rely on people a lot. I remember early days, my first time out shopping by myself. I had researched all my words and I on my husband and thought, “I’ve got this, I can do it” and went out… got all the way through the shopping and got to the butcher section. I just wanted some chicken and all the words just fled, like chicken… I just need chicken! I think I ended up standing there and flapping my wings at him like a hen. I know the Argentinians are very kind people when it comes to language but he definitely had a quiet little giggle behind his hand at that one. But anyway, I got my chicken. I think those were some of the situations where the church really stepped up and helped me. Like in the early days, a year after I moved, I had a major back surgery. I was in hospital for 5 days. And if you haven’t been in a country where you don’t speak the language, you probably wouldn’t understand exactly the huge undertaking that is. But you suddenly you can’t understand what the doctor’s saying. You don’t know what you know what’s coming next. And there were church members that would just come and take turns sitting with me in the hospital, translating, looking after me.
And I remember when we got home as well, the house was just full of food, gifts, and we for two weeks thereafter, we had church members do us a meal train, I think um they called it, where every night someone else would be scheduled to bring us bring us a meal and help us out. But yes, it was it was a big challenge, but I think it was definitely kudos to the church members helping us get through it. And there’s a lot of very special connections and relationships we have with them from that time that we still have today.

Lloyd: Now that you’re established yourself in business I know that you’re very passionate about mentoring other young women. Why is that?

Eloise: I see a lot of young women today, older ones as well actually, but struggling to set goals and perhaps realize the potential that they have, what they could be doing with their lives, whether that’s you know career-wise, family-wise, financially. …I’ve worked with a lot of young women over the last seven years, obviously through Zembr, it’s exposed me to a lot. I find it really fulfilling and love to see these young women step up and take hold of their lives and set goals and move forward.

Lloyd: There’s a lot said about young women in the church that they’re not given any choice or control. How do you feel about that when you hear that said?

Eloise: I think the people saying this obviously they have their own perspective, but it’s definitely not what I know of the church. And I guess I always say, look, at the end of the day, it’s up to you to make what you want of your life. It’s no different within the church or outside. But if you want a career, just get on and work for it and make your own career. If you want to get married, get married. If you want to stay single, stay single. If you want babies, have babies. If you want it all, do it all. But yeah, it’s really up to you to make your own choices in life along with your family and figure out what you want out of life.

Lloyd: Well, you certainly overcome some challenges. What’s next on the horizon?

Eloise: Well, it’s going to be a busy 12 months. We are obviously here in Sydney now… we’re launching a new uh business operating system actually which is a bit of a been a bit of a passion project of mine for the last 18 months. It involves a lot of you know coaching and strategic work with businesses which is exciting. I am hoping to move into a bit of private property development. Aside from that, I don’t know really. Life tends to throw a few curve balls, so we’ll just roll with the punches and enjoy our time in Sydney while we’re here.

Lloyd: Well, thank you very much for joining us today. Your story is certainly inspiring and your energy. And thanks to all that have joined to listen. We appreciate your company. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd Grimshaw: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. I’m also occasionally the church’s spokesperson in the media. So, I get to see all the questions that journalists have about the church. And like the saying goes, sometimes they don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. This podcast is about putting all the facts on the table. In the first four episodes, we’re speaking with the four sons of our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. Thanks again for your time. Previously, the five of us have discussed what life is like in the church. Today, I’d like to talk to you about what it’s like when people leave it. How many people do leave the church and what are the main reasons?

Charles: We have a fellowship of about 55,000 churchgoers or members globally and thankfully it is rare that someone does choose to leave the church. If you look at the Sydney congregation where there’s approximately 900 people, there has been eight in the last decade that has left the church in this area and four of them were young and chose to leave the church to pursue a different lifestyle and the other four chose to leave their wives and therefore leave the fellowship. So thankfully it is rare that it happens.

Lloyd: So what happens to a person when they do leave the church, Dean?

Dean: We don’t cut them off. It comes down to the individual families. If they wish to stay in contact with them and they’re free to reach out if they get in a difficult position or they need some support or some help, they can absolutely reach out for support.

Lloyd: I think a lot of the confusion around the church is because of the language. Excommunication, shut up, confinement, withdrawn from. What does it mean to be confined or shut up?

Gareth: It takes you a fair bit fair process to actually get confined or shut up. Lloyd, it means you just keep going back to something wrong that’s not in accordance with our way of life and our values. But normally people get many, many chances. But find if it comes to the point where they just want to continue it, then we confine them. It doesn’t mean we confine them to a room. It just means they don’t actually go out to the meetings. But there’s a lot of support, a lot of care, a lot of help, a lot of support, people come around to try to help them. Probably 99% of people come from a confined or shut up position back into the church or the fellowship and then you know, the 1% that decide they don’t want our way of life, then they leave. But we don’t shut them out. We don’t ignore them. Yeah. Here we offer ongoing support and help.

Lloyd: So what happens when someone is finally excommunicated?

Gareth: It just means they no longer come to our churches or our meetings, gatherings. The family as such don’t shut them off or ignore them or treat them badly or look down on them. Obviously we keep to the truth of separation so that we wouldn’t eat or drink with them or socialize, but we’d be always there to lend a helping hand if ever a trouble arose.

Lloyd: So, can they ever come back to the church group?

Greg: Yeah, absolutely. And many have and we will welcome them back if they want to re-commit to our beliefs and practices.

Dean: In many situations, Lloyd, as Charles said, thankfully it’s rare. It’s sad when it happens but just like we see in the broader community in the broader world estrangement can come in between husband and wife and they go their separate ways which then you know results in separation and a divorce. Our focus and our mantra I guess is always reconciliation and making sure that husband and wife are mend their ways and get back together again. But sadly, there are situations that they decide to pursue an alternative pathway that’s separate to, different to the values that we hold true and that’s a choice that they make.

Lloyd: So, as you say, family arrangements come in for all sorts of reasons, whether religion’s involved or not. But do you think that happens more frequently in the church than other places, Gareth?

Gareth: It’s pretty rare, Lloyd. If you even look at divorce rates, I just Googled it this morning. In Australia, it’s 40%. Ours is less than 0.01%. So, that shows how much we hold family first. Good values, good principles, hold the family together. We’re very much family first and everything is centred on the family.

Lloyd: Some say that when they do leave the church, they are cut off from the family, Charles, and some even say they have their photos cut out of the family photo album. Can you comment on that?

Charles: I think we need to respect the individual families when choices like that are made. And I wouldn’t want to go into any detail of any you’d have to look at on a case-by case basis, but it’s not the church forcing that to happen. It’s particular families that may choose to have photos changed or retaken, but it’s not the church who forces that.

Lloyd: So when husband and wife are confined, are their children taken off them and placed with other families?

Dean: No, definitely not. Normally the children would go with the parents unless of course they are old enough and of age, you know, maybe over 16 or 18 and they decided to stay with the church. It’s absolutely an individual matter. There may have been some isolated incidents, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, where the church made a mistake, but that certainly wouldn’t be the case these days. I think most churches in Australia and indeed globally would look at some things that may have happened decades ago and say that if it occurred today, it would be definitely handled differently. And the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is in the same boat.

Lloyd: What about when people leave? Some of them have said they were fired from their jobs. Greg, is that mandatory? Does that normally happen?

Greg: I’m not sure of any case or not sure what you’re referring to, but what I would say is the church doesn’t own any businesses and doesn’t employ anyone. So, if someone has been fired, you’d have to go to the business owner and ask them. It’s hiring and firing is solely and wholly you know, the responsibility of the business owners.

Lloyd: Many ex-members have made allegations about mistreatment at the hands of the church and Gareth. Have you got any comment to make about that?

Gareth: Yeah, sadly that’s true, Lloyd. As Dean was saying, it’s more like sort of 25, 30, 40 years ago. But yeah, some were unfairly treated and put out wrongly and my heart goes out to them. I feel very sorry. We actually had like a review, I think it was in ’02 ’03 and a lot of matters were put right globally. We wrote letters and I know in Sydney my wife had two uncles, nice guys actually, one’s in real estate and yeah, they were put out wrongly. But they they’re happy with their position. In fact my grandpa, he passed away about 10 years ago and they’ve come to the burial. They were just happy that we we’re looking after their father and mother. But our heart goes out to people that have been mistreated and any mistakes we’ve made, we’ll acknowledge it. But I think our whole church has evolved like a lot of churches and a lot of foundations and we’ve moved with the times. We keep true to our values and principles, but we’re a lot more flexible and open to working situations out, would you say, Dean?

Dean: Absolutely.

Lloyd: So, where there’s been allegations of wrongdoing, what do we do to investigate those allegations, Dean?

Dean: So if a report comes to our attention obviously we’d follow that up and follow that through and if it needed to involve the authorities or external body then it would be followed through accordingly.

Lloyd: Are church members told that they should fear the outside world?

Charles: No but we do fear the system of the world as set up by Satan and as we look at the holy scriptures and we try to live in accordance with the Bible. The Lord himself said my kingdom is not of this world. So, we would fear what could happen to us or anybody that would get away from the system of protection and care that was set on by Christ when he was here.

Lloyd: We said that infidelity was a reason that some people leave the church. But what about sexuality? When people come out as gay, do they get excommunicated from the church? Gareth, no, they don’t get excommunicated for coming out gay and they finally have to decide what way of life they want. A lot of them actually just choose to stay within the fellowship. Others actually decide they want to pursue an alternative lifestyle. So they invariably would leave the church. But we don’t look down on them. We don’t treat them as second rate. Indeed, in our workplaces, we have worked with many members of the LGBTQ community and got on very well them, delivered projects, and had good relationships with them.

Lloyd: So the church does it forbid persons from having to do with family members that have come out as gay?

Gareth: No, they wouldn’t. The family would be free to interact with them and talk with them and speak with them. Obviously, we’d still practice the truth of separation.

Dean: But I guess that comes down to individual situations. Lloyd, the church doesn’t insist either way, but it comes down to the individual family. So there would be situations where someone may have come out gay, pursued an alternative lifestyle and left the church and if the family choose not to engage in continue contact with that sibling or that family member, then that’s their matter.

Charles: We obviously believe what it says and go by what it says in the Bible that marital relationships is between a man and a woman. And sometimes that may mean that members that want to pursue a different lifestyle to that will leave the church on by their own choice. When you speak of people from the LGBT community getting cut off, it’s not right and it’s not correct because for instance, an employee that we had, Gareth, that worked for us for many years, was part of that community. He remained as part of the church for probably 10 or 15 years. Then he chose to pursue another lifestyle and we keep in touch with him. His family keeps in touch with him. If at any time he is in need in any way, shape or form, whether it be physically, financially, mentally, he will call out for help and we are more than happy to sit down with him and help him out.

Gareth: He often rings up, Charles and just wants to chat about general life and we ask him how he is and yeah, does he need any further support or anything else? But no, we remain on as good friends with him.

Lloyd: Well, other churches seem to have been become more accepting over the years. Why hasn’t the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church?

Dean: Well, the church is evolving, maybe slower than mainstream churches, but I think we’ve been encouraged recently that the Pope, Catholic Pope has just affirmed to 1.4 billion Catholics worldwide, that the family is founded upon the stable union between a man and a woman. We certainly acknowledge that others can do and have other beliefs and views, but the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church believes everyone should be treated with care and compassion and respect.

Lloyd: So does the church practice gay conversion therapy?

All: Absolutely not.

Lloyd: Is there a lot of bullying amongst church members, particularly younger ones, for being different, Greg?

Greg: No, I don’t think so. Obviously like any community we would have bullying whether it’s at the school or in the playground but at on the whole, we celebrate the different personalities and characters and that’s really what makes our community interesting isn’t it?

Lloyd: Well that brings us to the end of our interview with the Hales brothers. We’ve covered some pretty tough topics in this episode in particular. But we do want to end on a positive note. So, I’d like to ask each of you, what is it that you really enjoy about being part of the church?

Dean: Yeah, it’s a good question, Lloyd. I think what binds us and holds us together is that we have a common bond of love and friendship. We love the Lord Jesus. We love God. We love our family. We love our community. We love one another. We see ourselves as going through this scene with a view to transitioning or moving on to heaven in the next life. And that’s really what holds and binds us together as we go through this scene.

Charles: I think the support network that we have amongst this church is a great thing to call upon. We all have stress, we all have sorrow, we all have sadness, but then to be able to draw upon those that are in the church for help at any time. And also to be able to go to the meetings at night and see them on a daily and weekly basis, I think brings a lot of happiness and a lot of joy to our lives. Would you say?

Dean: Absolutely. So when we get together, we have a great time together. Whether it’s in the church, whether it’s in our homes, where wherever we are, whatever environment we’re in, we get on very well. What would you say, Gareth?

Gareth: It’s good, Dean. It gives us peace in our lives, happiness, contentment, but it really gives us direction and focus in our lives and purpose, which is important.

Greg: I think it’s really the great sense of trust we have within the members of our church and the love amongst one another. And I’d like to say that over the years I’ve found friends in all the countries that the PBCC operated in. And we could realistically any one of the saints could ring any one of the 55,000 other ones if they were stuck or in distress and they could get help immediately.

Dean: And we’ve actually experienced that, haven’t we, on our travels over the last two decades. We’ve been privileged and favoured to go to a number of countries and we’ve stayed at homes and met people that we’ve never met before or never known. And you might be in a lounge room in a family home in the middle of Paris with 30 other members of the Plymouth Brethren. And there’s happy times, there’s joy, there’s experiences shared, and there’s that common bond of connection and togetherness that you just we haven’t experienced anywhere else.

Gareth: It’s very reconfirming and reassuring. When we travel overseas and to see people in France or Germany or America, they’re all living the same values, same principles, same family life that binds us together universally.

Charles: And all holding true to separation, which really is the backbone of our church.

Greg: And what keeps you in the church, Lloyd?

Lloyd: Well, I think some of the things you’ve covered certainly resonate with me. I guess first and foremost, it’s the privilege of being able to gather every week at the Lord’s Supper with persons like-minded Christians, persons who we know and trust and understand, and persons that we fellowship with. That certainly keeps us in the church. But we’re all trying to get through this life. We’ve all got families to look after. We’ve all got mortgages to pay off, businesses to run. We all have the sorrows and joys of life. But certainly being connected to the church, a brilliant support structure like you’ve been saying, and gives you a sense of being connected to something that’s bigger than yourself. You always get a sense of someone that’s there to cover your back and make you feel connected and grounded. So yeah, it’s a wonderful privilege to be in this fellowship.

Dean: So the community really gives its members confidence, gives them hope, and it really gives them a way forward for the future.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again, guys, and thanks again for anyone who’s tuned in. Be sure to check out the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. This is the next episode of our new podcast series, Behind the Plymouth Brethren, where we tackle common media questions and misconceptions about our church. In this episode, I’ll be covering a few topics: education, business, tax, and technology. And to help me do that, I’m once again joined by the four Hales brothers, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. So, first off, often in media reports about the church, the name Universal Business Team or UBT pops up. So, for people who don’t know, what is UBT? Dean?

Dean: UBT is a global consulting organization. It operates in 19 countries and was founded in 2009 as a result of the global financial crisis. It employs I think around 800 people of which around 400 are from the wider community. So 50% of its employees aren’t part of the church. And they provide a range of advisory, coaching, training packages to support businesses. And they also support in providing funding for one school and and education. And in more recent times, they’ve leveraged with a lot of global brands to be able to leverage group buying power on a range of products and services for businesses globally.

Lloyd: So, who oversees the UBT? Is it the Hales or is it the church?

Dean: No, the Hales family definitely don’t run UBT and nor does the church. It’s a completely separate organization from the Plymouth Brethren. You’d need to ask that question of the UBT management and board. But what I can tell you is that UBT has played a phenomenal role over the last 16 years in supporting over 3,000 family businesses across the globe, both small, medium, and large, and really has been a key enabler of prosperity both in business and in life.

Charles: Every one of us would have benefited from the collaboration across UBT and providing them providing a platform to meet other you know business owners and intelligent businesspeople.

Gareth: Definitely.

Dean: Absolutely. I mean for my own situation back in 2012 fell on tough times and half of our business disappeared overnight and if it wasn’t for UBT support and UBT advisers, you know, I don’t think we’d be in business today.

Lloyd: Church critics say that the UBT is used as to funnel money to the church in some sort of money laundering scheme. You know, quite an accusation. So, have businesses or our charitable organizations been specifically set up to dodge tax, Gareth?
Gareth: No, not at all. No, we absolutely believe in paying tax. It’s what makes Australia great. It’s what makes any country great because it really funds essential services like health and education and transport and roads, bridges, gas, water, the list goes on. So any forward thinking prosperous country relies on taxpayers’ money. My father was actually a company auditor and a tax accountant. So from day one he was always adamant we that we pay tax. One little story comes to mind. He said he got a call from his father at John Hales about 50 years ago and he said “I want you to write three things down, Bruce and one was total integrity with the tax office. The second thing was to do the best by your clients. And the third thing was if you make a little bit of money on the way, that’s by the way.” But I thought that was three good programs to go by. But yeah, we thousand per cemt believe in paying tax.

Charles: Yeah, there’s been a myth for decades that we don’t pay tax and it’s honestly laughable.

Dean: Yeah, I was just going to say we’ve had a lot of wider community employees join our business that have seen the narrative and the headlines around avoiding tax. And it’s far from the truth. And just to echo what Gareth said, I think it’s been since we all entered into business a cardinal non-negotiable principle that we’ve been brought up on that you pay your tax and you pay your tax on time.

Gareth: A lot of our clients are Fortune 500 companies and they like to look at our actual financials so we can’t have anything dodgy going on dealing with those sorts of companies. Yeah.
Lloyd: Well, the church is aligned with a charity. One of them is called the Rapid Relief Team or the RRT. And for those that don’t know what the RRT is, Greg, can you tell us what it is?

Greg: Yeah, the Rapid Relief Team was established for the care and compassion of the community. It mainly helps charities and frontline services in times of need. So for instance, a lot of disaster relief or preparing for disasters. Across the globe we’ve helped after major hurricanes in the US and here in flooding in New South Wales and Queensland and and helped in fires all around the globe as well. There’d be many firefighters and nurses that would know us and attest to the good work the RRT has done.
Lloyd: So do church members use the RRT as some sort of tax break?

Greg: No, not at all. I’ve actually volunteered for the RRT. Me and Dean packed about 6,000 sandbags out at Windsor on a wet Monday night, but it’s not the only charity we support. For myself, I also support the Surf Life Saving and Red Cross and many others.

Dean: It’s a remarkable organization, Lloyd, operating in 19 countries, but not only the countries and the locations in which the Plymouth Brethren are based.
And there’s been extensive contribution like truckloads of food to those affected in Ukraine through this terrible, horrific war that we’re seeing play out over the last few years and it’s very much valued by frontline organizations in over 25 countries.

Gareth: Yeah, even the LA fires Lloyd the RRT had a significant impact on that and the local fireies and police officers were so pumped that our guys could get food and drinks right to the actual scene where the fires were. They said all the other sort of charity organizations couldn’t do what the RRT did. So they were pumped up there. The firies and the police guys, they loved love the service. Yeah.

Dean: And I think it speaks to our whole ethos and mantra as a church for care and compassion and respect for all mankind because the personal sacrifice that business owners within the Plymouth Brethren and their employees put in to support RRT is remarkable. So you just take recently those terrible floods in Texas where there was those young children that drowned. We had RRT support people on the front line there for 3 weeks straight. So, they took time out of their businesses to be able to be down there and support those frontline workers to try and retrieve, you know, people that were affected from those floods. And if you look at the only locality or subdivision where the Plymouth Brethren operates in Texas is in a place called San Antonio, which you’d be familiar with, Lloyd, and I think we only have about 150 members there. We had close on 50 members of our church down there on the front line for over 3 weeks supporting that cause.

Lloyd: So along with the myth that Plymouth Brethren members don’t pay tax, there’s a widely held belief that members of the church are disproportionately wealthy and a whole lot of us run multi-million dollar businesses. Is that the case, Charles? Or you got to comment on that?

Charles: No, it’s not the case. There are a large number of successful businesses, but along with that, there’s a large number of unsuccessful businesses. We look at our own businesses over the years and we’ve all fell on tough times at different times in our career. You know I can picture times in UniSpace when me and Gareth were around where we had to go back out to get more debt on our houses in order to get through a particular year. So I think to say that we’re disproportionately wealthy is a bit over the top.

Lloyd: There’s been multiple newspaper stories about the various homes bought and sold by the Hales family over the years. So, I’m wondering, Dean, what’s it feel like to be a Sydney real estate celebrity?
Dean: Yeah, it’s an interesting one, Lloyd. I think I’d make three points on that, I guess. Firstly, if we’re celebrities, Sydney definitely needs to find some better ones. Number two, it’s obviously clearly apparent that Sydney has an obsession with real estate. We definitely know that that’s alive and well, but we live in pretty average suburbs like Eastwood and Epping, not suburbs like Double Bay and Dover Heights. And I guess thirdly, I live in a pretty ordinary house. It’s these two guys that got the big ones.

Lloyd: So, seriously, there are some large homes. Is there a reason for that or?

Charles: Well, if you look at the way in which we live our lifestyles, the house that I’m currently I’m building at the moment behind Gareth, a much bigger house than I’m in now, but the house that I’m in now, I’ll pick out two different times when we entertain or socialize with the community or the people within our church. One is when we have them in for a lunch or a dinner, and sometimes we could entertain up to 40 or 50 people. Now, I just can’t physically do that at my house, but I would love to have the opportunity to do that at my house in the future. The second is we often have what we refer to as special meetings where people gather together in the church from all over the world. And it’s an awesome experience to be able to have couples and young kids and older people staying in our house for three or four nights at a time, and exposing our children to that those kind of difference, cultural differences. But at the moment in my house, I don’t have the rooms to do that. So at my new house, I’ll have an extra three spare rooms so that I can cater for those people when they come.

Dean: I think that’s a really important point, Lloyd, because family is at the heart of everything we do as a church and as a community. And generally speaking, when we have large church events or Bible readings, which we have on a global basis, and there’d be a number of people that would travel to those events, and they would be billeted out, if you will, and assigned to different people that that would accommodate them in their home. So rather than staying in a hotel and then getting on a bus and going to the church event or the Bible meeting, they would stay in their home. So we put a big emphasis on making sure that we’ve got  homes that can accommodate people and take care of them because that’s kind of where all the socializing happens after the church events back in our homes.

Greg: And we wouldn’t actually know everyone. I mean, we can’t don’t know 55,000 people, but it’s a chance for us to accommodate them and meet new faces and new people and learn about their lives.

Gareth: Just looking after people and giving them a good times. You got to have a good lounge. We like to sit up at the dining room table and good family room then a good alfresco. We like our barbecues and I got a good little fire pit down the back. Lloyd, you’re welcome to join me.

Dean: Gareth is a bit of a fire bug.

Gareth: If I don’t have family and friends, I get the fire on bit of country music and then a wee jack and coke.

Dean: You definitely know and Gareth had a good fire pit because he generally gives us an update on the brothers’ chat whether the Wallbies have just won in Johannesburg or the Tigers have managed to pull off a rare win with the NRL.

Gareth: Yeah. Well, that win the box was was quite remarkable, wasn’t it, boys? If we can say that. We felt pretty good.

Dean: Very encouraging. Certainly hoping for a backup performance this weekend.

Gareth: I reckon Joe Smith’s got to stay on a bit longer, but anyway, I’ve got a plan for that.

Charles: Yeah, that’s good. You can let us know later after the podcast. No, that was a big win. Really big win.

Gareth: We love the Bockies though. We love the South African guys.
A lot of them in the community. They moved out in ‘99 because it’s a bit of a rough country, but I love their spirit. They’re sort of rugged. good sense of humor.

Dean: So, I think that’s a good segue, Gareth. Once again, talking about care and compassion because as you say I think we had some circa 1200 Plymouth Brethren members in South Africa and we actually had one that was fatally shot by a gangster that tried to break into his house or car actually in his car and he was shot by outside his workplace, I think it was, and as a result of that some of the elders were concerned for the safety and so there was a mass migration so we have a lot of South Africans that moved to Australia and UK and New Zealand and they form an integral part of our community.

Charles: They love their rugby too. Yeah, they do.

Dean: And they’re still very loyal to their mother country, South Africa, when it comes to playing rugby.

Gareth: Yeah, they’re number one in the world for a reason, aren’t they? Yeah.

Lloyd: As well as ending up in the real estate pages of the newspaper. We sometimes end up in the education section as well. And I’ve seen a lot of questions come through about how brethren are educated, including where the kids go to school, whether they can go to university or whether they’re all homeschooled.
In the first episode, we touched on where you all went to school or some of you went to school. What about these days? Where where do the kids go to school?

Charles: The kids through from kindergarten through to year three typically go to local government schools and then one school global is then an option for them from year 3 through to year 12. So I would say a large majority of the children within the community would go to One School Global, but not 100%.
Lloyd: You talk about One School Global, are they schools that are controlled by the church?

Charles: No, they’re not controlled by the church. They’re an independent organization with their own independent board. What’s interesting is that a large number of the teachers and their staff would be from outside the community. In fact, what I can say is 100% of the teachers, not just the staff, but the teachers are actually from outside the community. because OneSchool Global doesn’t teach religion at the school. It prefers that the children are taught in the churches and at their homes. Any specific obviously questions about how OSG operates, you’re welcome to talk to, maybe you can get one of the board members or one of the managing directors of the school on a future podcast, but it’s not controlled by the by the church.

Lloyd: So when Brethren students do finish year 12, Gareth, why aren’t they allowed to go on to university?

Gareth: There’s nothing wrong Lloyd again against the actual university courses as such. It’s just the campus life and the party life is not really conducive to our values and our way of life. Yeah, obviously they’re allowed to do online courses. So we often we always encourage them to do post-graduate studies. My two boys did post-graduate studies for accounting and finance and indeed everyone that we employ like 80 per cent of our team workforce has actually gone through university such as lawyers, engineers, you know, tradespeople. So we have total respect. It’s not that we look down on or think we’re superior. It’s more just from a moral point of view. We’re trying to protect our young people.

Dean: In summary, we would probably say that campus life wouldn’t be conducive with the maintaining separation.

Charles: But again, we don’t force our children not to do post-graduate studies.

Greg: Absolutely not. In fact, we encourage it. And I’ve had probably 15 school levers over the last 5 years. And I would say 70 per cent of them took up either a one year or three year course and we allowed them to do that whilst working. So it gives them a bit of a head start so they can get into the workforce as well as having that secondary training.
Dean: We like to say, don’t we, earn while you learn. And I guess another point on that Lloyd is that a number of our graduates that come out of school often pursue a trade as well. So we’ve still got you know builders and metal workers and welders that are amongst the community. Their vocation is very much empowered to them as to what pathway they decide to choose.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again for your time. We’ll hear more from you in the next episode and thanks to everyone who’s taken the time to tune in. Keep an eye out for our next episode next week.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. This is the next episode of our new podcast series, Behind the Plymouth Brethren. Previous episodes can be found on our website and social channels. In the first four episodes of this podcast, I’m speaking with the four sons of our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales. I’ve been asking Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles some of the questions that our church frequently receives from the media or on social media channels. In this episode, we’ll kick off a conversation about two of the topics that come up most often: the role of women and men in the church as well as food and drink. In later episodes, we’ll put some of these same questions to women, younger parishioners, and older parishioners so that we can provide a full picture of the life of our church. Gentlemen, thanks again for joining me. Some of the journalists have said that women in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church are treated as second-class citizens. What’s your response to that, Gareth?

Gareth: Yeah, well Lloyd, uh, I believe women are highly regarded, highly respected in our church. very happy, active, fulfilling lives. They have a total say on whether they work full-time or part-time or just be stay at home moms. So, they have total freedom of choice. Like all women, when they get together, the life of the party, they’d like to have a laugh and a chat and bit of a joke. We certainly enjoy their company. Like all women, they have their own social network group, so they catch up for coffee, just a talk or a group chat. If I was to describe the women in our church, I’d say they’re they’re happy, they’re energetic, they’re creative, they’re fun, they’re out of the box thinkers. They’re really like the backbone of the church.

Charles: I personally think it’s awful what the journalists say about our women and hopefully given the opportunity to speak up, they will. But you touched on the on the matter of choice. I think that is a true and fair word of the women in our church. They have a choice. They can choose to work. They can choose not to work.

Lloyd: Well, so far on the on the podcast, we’ve obviously heard from four men – or five men and no women an we know what that looks like. There are a couple of Hales sisters. Why aren’t they here today?

Dean: We did actually ask Lloyd, our two sisters, older sisters at that, Jane and Karen, to come along today, but they told us to go jump.

Gareth: But trouble is, if Jane was here, she’d take over the whole thing.

Dean: She would definitely dominate. Big sister Jane. But in all seriousness, Lloyd, we do hope that many persons will come forward from the church and participate in a podcast. Uh both men and women, young and old.

Lloyd: Yeah. Well, not to give anything away too early in the season, but we do hope to interview a whole range of other persons, men and women, young and old, in coming episodes. So, back to the questions. Gareth, is it true that women of the church have to quit work after marriage?

Gareth: No, they don’t, Lloyd. They can continue to work and keep their job if they so wish. It’s complete freedom of choice as we touched on earlier.

Greg: Yeah. I’d like to say that our CFO has been four women from the church for the last 15 years and all of them after getting married chose to come back to work, which we’re really grateful for. Then they helped transition the position for the next person. They’ve been very successful at it and they hold very important roles in our business.

Lloyd: So why is it that women sit at the back during our church services?

Charles: I think there’s a number of reasons why the women sit at the back of the church, but let’s bear in mind they don’t always sit at the back of the church. So in the church that we go to at Ermington, our main Sydney church, there’s a lot of brothers as we call them or men and boys that sit behind the sisters. So it’s not entirely true. What we do find though is the children kind of zero to four or five would typically sit with their mothers if they’re young and they’re quite noisy. And the people that are, not all the contributions, but a large proportion of the contributions come from the front of the church. So typically, a lot of the women folk with their young kids would sit near the doors so that the kids are coming in and out all meeting it. If you can picture it, it’d be pretty disruptive if they’re all sitting in the front row with a bunch of, you know, one- to three-year-olds.

Dean: But I don’t think it’s dissimilar to a number of other churches, Lloyd, the Jews and other denominations where women don’t sit in the front of the church. I think it really reflects the role that they do play and as Gareth said it is indeed pivotal and represents the backbone of the church. If you take the Lord’s supper for instance where we gather together every Sunday morning, the women actually lead us through the different phases of the service of God and give out all the hymns and they essentially indicate when we move on to the next phase.

Gareth: They actually start it and then actually end it as well, don’t they?

Dean: Absolutely.

Lloyd: So, the wedding vows as we practice them, do the women in Plymouth Brethren wedding vows, do they have to vow in their vow that they’ll submit to men?

All: No, not at all. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Greg: Our vows have actually changed over the years. They were different uh for me compared to 20 years prior. But nowhere has it ever said that. It’s complete falsehood.

Dean: My wife definitely wouldn’t have married me if that was the case.

Gareth: My wife doesn’t submit very much to me.
It’s more like I’m submitting to her, which is fair enough.

Lloyd: There’s been some media reports that workplaces uh that are owned by members of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, they have a misogynistic culture. Is there any truth to those reports?

Gareth: No, far from the truth, Lloyd. We have a real winning culture at our businesses. In our previous business, UniSpace, we had a winning culture. There was no politics. There was no red tape. People love the fact we embraced all walks of life. Our values are fearless, energetic, courageous, humble, loyal, but we got the best of the best talent.
We got excellent designers, project managers, all working together. The fact they came with us to us was because of our winning culture. We paid them good.
We almost had like a triple win sort of methodology. It was our clients would win, our employees would win, and we would win as well. So, I know it was a very good culture, but Charles, you could speak to that.

Charles: Oh, we were in the construction industry, as you know, which was very male-dominated right across the industry, and there were a lot of the big builders that got together to try and improve the ratios of women to men. And at UniSpace, our percentages of women to men were well and truly among the highest in the industry. And we made conscious decisions back at UniSpace to promote more women into leadership because that was something that we wanted to change in the industry. So we played a pivotal part in that. So to suggest that our cultures within the community are misogynistic is ridiculous.

Dean: Utterly false, Lloyd. And I think in my business in the ox business, our ratio globally at the moment is bang on 50% women and 50% men. And I think diversity and inclusion and equal opportunity for men and women within our businesses for their careers and their future livelihoods is very much a scent and pivotal and front and focus of our community businesses.

Lloyd: What about when it comes to uh cooking and cleaning? Dean, do the women have to do all of that?

Dean: Definitely not. I can uh cook a mean barbecue. I’ll have to invite you along someday. And uh no, as far as cleaning up after, it’s definitely a shared job. Happy life, happy wife.

Gareth: I’m always cleaning up. Dean, me and Katrina both like a good clean house. So if she doesn’t do it, I do it. It’s a very much a joint venture.

Charles: Yeah. I mean, there’s so much to do of an evening. Not only cleaning up, looking after the kids. It’s not a planned thing. You do Mondays, I do Wednesdays. It’s whatever’s happening at the time. But we all definitely all do our bit. That’s why that’s why I’m still married anyway.

Lloyd: Well, staying on the subject of meals, why wouldn’t you or another member of the church have a meal or a drink with someone outside the church?

Gareth: It’s just the truth of separation. We don’t eat or drink with those that partake of the Lord’s supper. We regard that as communion. So, it’s just a simple rule that we follow. It’s not that we look down on other people or think we’re superior. That’s just a rule of separation that we’ve always gone by.

Lloyd: Is there specific things that you we can and can’t eat when we’re on the subject of meals?

Gareth: Nah you can eat whatever you want. Yeah.
Dean: We obviously respect that in other religions there’s foods that they don’t eat. So, lots of lots of people from other religions have different eating requirements. Some eat shellfish, some don’t eat shellfish or pork, some don’t eat on Good Friday, others don’t eat during Ramadan. The Plymouth Brethren simply don’t eat with persons that we don’t partake of holy communion on a Lord’s Day which is Sunday. So that is we gather together every Sunday morning for the Lord’s supper and partake of the assembly emblems and those that don’t participate in that are persons that we don’t eat or drink with.

Lloyd: Every now and again the media asks us about campus and co which was a supermarket, small supermarkets, that were run by members of the church. Why do the brethren own their own supermarkets?

Dean: Yeah, it’s a good question, Lloyd. Camps and Co. was initially set up to provide additional funding for OneSchool and for the education of our children. But that’s not the only place we shop at. Speaking for my wife and I in our family, we’d go to Woolworths, Coles, and uh never shy away from a good deal at Aldi. But recently I’ve heard that the management of Campus and Co have decided to close down all the stores globally. I think it was a financial decision. It wasn’t sustainable and it was also a significant load on volunteers but they’re moving and transitioning to a full online e-commerce model.

Greg: I don’t know if we need a sponsor at all, Lloyd, for our podcast, but I’d like to give a good shout out to Costco. Very much enjoy their meat.

Gareth: You get paid for that, do you, Greg?

Greg: We’ll see.

Dean: You’ve just got to pay a membership to Costco and if you get there late, you it takes you 45 minutes to get your trolley and get in there.

Greg: Yeah, they now do online as well.

Dean: Oh, do they? Okay. But they certainly have a phenomenal variety.

Charles: The other thing to do is just to set up chat with your in-laws and my dad-in-law goes to Costco every Monday night and does it for us.

Dean: That’s a good network you got.

Charles: That’s amazing, Charles. I’m seriously impressed.

Lloyd: Obviously, some people amongst the church enjoy a wine or a beer from time to time, but there’s some online comment commentators that say that the uh church takes it too far. Do you think there’s a a strong drinking culture in the church?

Charles: I don’t. But sadly, alcohol and drugs is a problem right across the world, the communities in the world. And I would say that the PBCC are no different. We have our challenges. In fact, we do a lot where we can to help people to go to rehab or get off, you know, substance abuse. I think the other key point is even through the OSG schooling system and the PBBC itself spends a lot of money and time and effort to try and educate the young ones as to the danger of substance abuse and makes them aware of habits or things that they may fall into in their youth so that we can hopefully save them from those issues later on in life.

Gareth: I’d say like society’s evolved, Lloyd, like 25 years ago, maybe we did drink a little bit more, but everyone’s talking about drink wisely, drink moderately.
Everyone’s worried about their fitness, their health. A lot of my good friends don’t drink at all. We still have a great time, get on well. So I, as Charles says, if there are some isolated people that have a problem, we would just recommend them to go to AA or a doctor or health clinic or St. John of God. But yeah, what do you say?

Dean: Yeah, I think as you say, we’ve seen in the broader world emerging trends and a change in health and wellness and PBCC members are not dissimilar to that.
People are very much embracing their health and wellness journeys and looking at alternative ways uh to make sure that they stay in good shape and stay fit and healthy.

Charles: Yeah. And you touched on it earlier about what drives us apart from just religious beliefs. And we spoke about achievement and trying to succeed and that that I would say would be right across the church. And obviously getting involved with alcohol and drug abuse is over against being successful. So we would recommend that our members understand what it is to have a strategy to get through the day, get through the week, and make sure that they’re performing at their best.

Dean: But we’ve all had experience of supporting people that have come into struggles with alcohol and substance abuse and we’re always directing them to get the best medical and professional and mental health that they can possibly get to make sure that they they live the quality and fulfilling lives that they deserve.

Gareth: Totally agree.

Lloyd: Well, is there anything else you’d like to mention that we haven’t touched on?

All: No, it’s been good, Lloyd.

Lloyd: Well, thanks again for your time, Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles. Really appreciate it. And thanks to everyone who’s listened or watching. Make sure to follow and subscribe so that you don’t miss the next episode.

Lloyd: Well, hello and welcome. I’m Lloyd Grimshaw and I’m a member of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. You may know my church as the exclusive Brethren, but that’s not the name we use. From time to time, it’s my job to step in and answer the questions that the media asks of our church. Some of them are reasonable, some are not, and some frankly border on conspiracy theory or even religious discrimination. And while we answer all the questions that we receive, we don’t always get a fair run in the media or on social media. So to tell you what life is really like in the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, we’re launching a podcast series Behind the Plymouth Brethren, and this is episode one.During this podcast, I’ll be asking the men and women of the church some of the more common questions that we get from the media and on social media. Some of them may seem tough and we’ll touch on uncomfortable topics, but we think it’s important to get the facts out and on the table. There are two things that we’ll be covering off in this first episode. Firstly, we’ll talk about what’s become a hot topic, the involvement of many members of our church in the 2025 Australian federal election. At the outset, let me make a few points on that. The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is comprised of autonomous individual congregations rather than being one formal structure. And each of those has individual parishioners who choose to come together to worship.Some of them are recognized as elders, but there’s no ordained clergy and no official positions and no formal hierarchy. What that means is that any individual in the church can reflect on their own experiences and views, but they don’t speak on behalf of the church as a whole. Another point is that there’s many people in our church who have strong political views and many more participate in elections and vote these days compared to days gone by. But there’s a big difference a big difference between being politically aware, interested and involved and being part of the apparatus of any political party. Many of our members are the former. None are the latter. The second thing we’ll be covering off in this first episode is the Hales family, many of whom themselves have some pretty strong views on politics and society in general. A lot’s been said in the media and online about our church’s most senior leader, Mr. Bruce Hales. Much of it’s either untrue or exaggerated. So, for the first few episodes of this series, we’ll be hearing from some of the people who know him best, his four sons, and I’ll be asking them about their lives now and growing up. Gareth, Dean, Greg, and Charles, thanks for being the first guests on what we hope will be an ongoing series featuring many other members of the church. So, why don’t we start with a few introductions? Gareth.

Gareth: Thanks, Lloyd. I’m Gareth. I’m one of six children. I’ve got two older sisters, Jane and Karen, and three younger brothers who are with me on the podcast here today. I’m 47 years of age. I’ve been married for 27 years. Got a wife and four kids, two boys, two girls. I got a few small businesses that I work in and do a bit for the community, bit for charity, look after dad and mom, and yeah, just a regular knockabout dad who’s trying to get a few wins on the board. Very passionate to talk to you Lloyd today just to unpack the mystery about the Plymouth Brethren. We started about 200 years ago. Started in Plymouth, hence the name Plymouth Brethren. Uh started by J&D John Nelson Derby and I think it’s about 55,000 members in bit over 16 countries. So we’re pretty small on the global scale. We’re pretty well mainstream Christianity. We go by the principles that are set out in the Bible. What makes us a little bit different from say the Anglicans or the Plymouth, sorry, the Anglican uh the Anglicans or the Catholics is the truth of separation. We don’t eat or drink with those that don’t take of the Lord’s supper. So, we regard that as communion or fellowship.

Lloyd: Thanks, Dean.

Dean: Yeah, thanks Lloyd. Um 43 years of age, been married for 21 years to my wife Nery, a grateful father of two daughters, 19 and six. Family’s at the centre of my life and I guess my days are filled with sitting on a few boards, few business investments that I’m involved in. Um, taking care of my elderly parents and get involved in bit of charitable work.

Greg: Yeah, I’m Greg. I’m 40 years old. Been married for 15 years to my wife and have two children. Um, I’m self-employed in the construction industry, so spend most of my days working in the business and uh spare time helping other small businesses around the country. Thanks, Charles.

Charles: My name’s Charles. Uh, 35 years of age, been married for about 12 years now. A wife and three children, a boy and two girls, 10, seven, and four. Keep me pretty busy. Um, I’m the baby of the family. So, the youngest of the four brothers here. I spent about 10 or 11 years in business with Gareth when we built up a business and sold it about 5 years ago. So, the past 5 years, I’ve been spending a lot more time with the family, less in business, and just trying to do my bit in the community. I got a couple of small shareholdings in smaller businesses and just try and sit on a few boards and try and help people out and obviously spend a lot of time with mom and dad as I get older and do what I can to support.

Lloyd: Very good. Well, thanks for the introductions. Wanted to start off uh with asking you what it was like for you growing up, Dean.

Dean: Yeah, my childhood was full of many experiences and connections really shaped through family outings, church gatherings, meeting a lot of different and varied people that shaped my world. It was for fun and rewarding, challenging at times, um, but certainly, you know, a life that was, um, interesting and filled with lasting memories.Lloyd: Was being part of the Plymouth Brethren a big part of your childhood, Greg? Greg: Well, obviously I attended church regularly, but really most of my childhood was made up of attending school and then after school activities. From kindergarten to year 7, year 6, All my friends were non-members of the church. Played a lot of sport with them and after school rode my bike as all kids did and went down to the park and played footy with the young boys around from the community.

Lloyd: What about schools? What school did you go to?

Charles: I went to Eastwood Public School, which is just a local government school down the road from kindergarten through to year six. I think some of the brothers also went there. Then I went to one school global from year 7 to year 12. Funny enough, my children still um attend Eastwood Public School. So, I still live in the same area and funny, I was there the other day, noticed one of the teachers, just one left, is still there from when I was around. But yeah, most of my mates from those younger years were from outside the community. One of my best mates, an Indian from up the road, his parents still live there, funny enough. The other day I was with Henry and I an unidentified flying object from our house went over there. It’s not exactly the neighbour right door. It’s like three or four doors back. And I took him around there, Henry, around to meet them to ask if they could find this object on the roof or wherever it was. He was really kind. He came to the front door. They’re fairly old now. They’re probably in their early 70s, late 60s. And I introduced them to Henry and they were laughing with him and explained they knew me from back when I was his age.

Lloyd: And growing up, Gareth, did you have friends outside the church?

Gareth: Yeah, I did. Lloyd, I had a lot of friends outside of the church. I grew up born and bred in Concord, and moved when I was about five to Beecroft, spent about 5 years there. Then moved to Eastwood when I was about 10. I had a lot of friends around the neighbourhood. I was into skateboarding a bit. So, I built this quarter pipe and I had Mikey over the back and a few mates up around the corner. Tony Hawk was the GOAT at the time. So we used to try and do a few airs but mostly ended up face planting in the bushes. But no, we had a good time. I made some good connections at Marsden High School. I went there for 4 years. Highlight was probably 93. Won the rugby union cup. We actually beat a Malvina High, they had a pretty good team, had a lot of big Pacific Islander boys. They were pretty hard to cut down, but we had a really good captain. He actually went on to represent Scotland. He ended up playing in France, I think, for too long. I actually caught up with him three or four years ago. Had a good chat, good yarn about just the old days and what we’ve been doing for the last 30 years. But yeah, I’ve been in the construction industry, Lloyd, for sort of over 30 years. And as all my brothers would have, we’ve got a lot of connections with tradies and sparkies and chippies and architects, designers. Every time we catch up, they sort of they understand us. We understand them. We have a good chat and yarn about anything and everything.

Charles: Have you met up with Mike out of interest since those days? The skateboarding?

Gareth: No, I wouldn’t have met Mike since I got married. Probably.

Charles: I was telling the story before about that UFO, the object that flew over. I met there. I went there first and I knocked on the door and I met Mike’s dad and he knew me straight away because he still lives there. You know, then he said, “I’ll introduce you to my grandson”. Mike’s got a son. He’s probably mid 20s and he came out and I never knew he existed. And I shook his hand and laughed that his dad used to skateboard with my old brother. So, it’s funny how things go on.Gareth: yeah his parents went to Vietnam War. I think the the dad did. Yeah. Yeah. Nice guy.

Lloyd: We often get asked as to whether marriages in the Plymouth Brethren are pre-arranged and you’ve all said you’re all married, all four of you. So, how did you meet your wives?

Dean: Yeah, definitely not pre-arranged, Lloyd. I had a few short lived romances in my early years, but I met Nerolie, my wife at Dubbo of all places in year 10 where we did distance education and had a bit of contact with her through year 11, year 12. We were in the same chemistry class and the chemistry was good. We connected well and then when I left school 5 years later got married in 2004.

Lloyd: So when you’re not working or at church Greg what keeps you occupied?Greg: Yeah well a lot of times obviously looking after the family keeping wife happy and looking after my elderly parents. Try and do to a bit of fitness each day whether that’s strength training or just going for a walk or play the odd game of tennis. And I suppose on the weekends we tend to socialize with either family or friends. We might go around to their houses and have a meal, or they might come to our house. And I suppose on in the summertime we sort of tend to get into a bit of swimming and fishing and out in boats.

Lloyd: There’s a lot of curiosity in the media about Mr. Bruce Hales, your dad. How would you describe him?

Dean: Yeah, dad’s always been there. He’s been a good father. He’s been almost a brother at times. Been a friend, someone that you can call on when times are tough or you’re experiencing challenges to give you a fresh perspective. He has a great sense of humor and no matter what the situation is, if he’s ever got to put something right or he’s offended someone, he’s certainly someone that’s been marked by humility. But yeah, he’s been someone that has been there for the ups and downs and the in-betweens. His kindness and compassion is off the charts to be honest. And I think he’s tried to teach us that, and you guys would know, but it doesn’t matter who the individual is that he comes across no matter what background, what circumstances they’re found in, he seeks to understand their problems and to provide some solution. What would you say?

Gareth: He’s very kind, very caring. A lot of people don’t understand him. He’s a little bit of a mystery about him. But a lot of people would think that a church leader would be really aloof from the mainstream people, but he’s not anything like that. He gets down to everyone’s level, down to young people, middle-aged people, older people, caring for them, protecting them, setting them up. But if I was to describe my father, as Dean said, he’s a good dad, a good friend, great personality, excellent sense of humour. But what attracts me to him is he doesn’t really think anything of himself. He always takes low ground. I was a bit of a difficult boy to bring up. Probably still am a bit difficult, trying to fix that up. But every time we’d have a bit of an argument before I went to bed, he’d come into the room and say, “Sorry, Gareth. I just want to put that right. I want to apologize.” And I’d always say, “No, Dad. Sorry. It was my fault.” But yeah, that’s my early sort of childhood memories of him.

Greg: Yeah, I’d echo those thoughts and on another note, I’ll describe him as firm but fair. So whether if you were in trouble, whether you’re in the wrong, there might be some discipline and some correction, but if you’re in the right, he’d be right there to defend you. And I got into a lot of trouble during my youth, but he was there to protect and care and defend.

Charles: I think it’s interesting, too, you spoke about how he connected with people no matter where they were from. It’s not just within the community. I think that’s good to get that out there. I think of the electrician that lives in the street, how much advice he’s got about where to purchase property and then even recently the physio that helped him with his knee. You know, the physio, what has he said to you about dad?

Dean: Yeah, I mean he just said dad’s always there caring for him, you know, giving him life advice, trying to give him some extra support, always giving him a tip to support him financially. But I think it’s a good point because not only dad is a visionary and he’s very much an entrepreneur, but he’s also always there for the battler and the underdog and giving them an opportunity and trying to lift them up and giving everybody an opportunity to grow and be the best version of themselves.

Gareth: He’s always stuck up for the underdog, hasn’t he? And that’s how we’ve come up a bit. Like he could, as you as you say, he was visionary. He was a leader. He always had purpose and direction and focus, but then he could talk to all walks of life, couldn’t he?

Lloyd: And what about your mom? What’s she like?

Dean: Yeah, mum’s a hardworking, efficient, diligent woman. She raised us both with care and discipline. Got us to always do our homework, do our chores, learn good habits and understood the value of responsibility and accountability. But I think at the same time, she balanced her role as an excellent mom. She’s got a very dry sense of humour. So we definitely kept grounded, kept life real and always with a laugh.

Gareth: Yeah, she always had a laugh. She had an excellent sense of humor. I think she got that from her father. Grandpa Green, Athol Green. He was pretty funny guy when he got going. But no, mum was a great mum. I often say to younger people, you only get one mum in your life. So look after her, protect her, support her. She had a bit of a stroke a few years ago, so we’re just trying to help her. I happened to live next door, so made a meal for her two nights ago. and go across there where I can. But no, great mum.Greg: It’s interesting you say about making meals because what sticks out in my mind is um mom caring for elderly people and sick people and um remembered time and time again 6:00 p.m. me sitting in the car in the passenger seat holding a tray at dinner and that’d be for two elderly people or in case of one family nearby that’s you know a meal for eight people. So she was always caring for others and always putting other people first.

Dean: And not just members from the community. If she heard if someone was a neighbour was sick or unwell or needed some support um she’d be always up for giving them a meal or giving them some sort of support or some cooking to help them out.

Charles: Yeah, I would say she’s highly intelligent as well. I think the conversations and the humour that we’ve enjoyed over the years about topics all over the world from varying different ideas and topics, but yeah, highly intelligent, awesome humour. Um and she enjoys her own little hobbies, too. She used to love doing sewing if you remember back in the day. Still loves to do sewing. Enjoys architecture and, you know, interior design. She did a lot of work on designing their houses and then often reviewing plans and things for others if people wanted advice. But always, I guess if there’s one thing you’d say, and it kind of links with what Greg said, you just can never stop her doing things for others. And not that you try to, but even when she was unwell or too tired or just got back from overseas or had six kids at home, she’d still be trying to do something for the neighbours or something for the sick person or so… yeah, it’s a pretty awesome quality.

Gareth: They’ve just done I was just going to say they’ve just done 50 years together. We had their anniversary celebration up at your house, Greg. It was good time. But you know, mom’s been an excellent support for dad for over 50 years. And likewise, dad for mom. And they’re being just good role models, brought us up on good morals, good values, you know, friendship, love, kindness, compassion.

Dean: And very unselfish. Just thinking about our childhood experiences and holidays. They’re always challenging and interesting, weren’t they? Mom would always make sure she was taking us out to many and varied places to keep it interesting and engaging.

Charles: And now the interest in the grandkids. Your kids are older than mine, but the interest they take in every single grandkid, rewarding them, giving them life advice, even helping us how to bring them up, teach them things. It’s quite incredible to watch.

Lloyd: Well, you’re all involved in running businesses. Um, so how do you manage the juggle? Managing a business, doing the dad jobs, and all the other responsibilities you have.

Dean: I think all our families would acknowledge and say that we haven’t always done a great job in managing family and work life balance. Speaking for oneself, I think family at time has come second or maybe even third priority due to trying to get a business up and running and get ahead. I was reading a book to my six-year-old daughter the other day and my 19-year-old said, “Dad, you never did that with me when I was six. I guess we reflect back on all the mistakes we’ve made and hope that we learn from those mistakes going forward.

Charles: I would say Covid probably helped at a similar time when Covid came we also sold our business but probably for the first 10 years of my marriage I family definitely came second or third but I think Covid actually helped everyone not only in our community to spend more time at home and realize that it’s not just all about all about business.

Greg: Yeah, I started a few businesses, some of which failed, but doing 15 hour, 16 hour days and then working on the weekends was very common, you know, from a period of when I left school at 17 till probably 28, 29. But thankfully business has turned around and I can spend more time at home and looking after the family.

Lloyd: A common theme in in all your answers has been your dedication, your commitment and a strong sense of belief. Apart from your strong religious beliefs, what else drives you?

Charles: I think I would say setting goals and achieving them. And what I mean by that, it’s not just necessarily a goal for the year or goal for a period of time. It’s a goal every day to seek to have a good day, to do things for others, and to achieve that at the end of the day, I think is a winning feeling. I think the other thing that drives us, and it’s probably come down from the parents and our church in general, is helping others and hoping to elevate their circumstances. I think we get a kick, if you want to call it, or a reward out of helping others that may not be as fortunate as we are to elevate someone else’s circumstances. I think an awesome opportunity that we get.

Gareth: You’re right, Charles. I mean, everyone that’s ever worked with me, even now, and it’s not people in the church, it’s outside the church. I sit down with them and say, “Look, what’s your three-year plan? You’re married, kids. Where do you want to be in 12 months, 2 years, 3 years? What are your financial goals? What are your moral goals? What are your physical goals?” It’s actually incredible. They often come back with a one page, a sheet. And I just had a guy yesterday, nice guy, project manager from Melbourne. He said, “Thank you so much for this bonus you gave me.” He said, “It’s life changing for me and my wife.” So that that actually pumps me up and inspires me to do more for others. Yeah.

Greg: I was just going to say that mentoring others, having started  a business at the age of 21, it’s awesome to mentor other young business entrepreneurs and that really drives me to try and get their businesses up and running because I know how tough it was to, you know, become somewhat successful.

Dean: And I think another point on that is probably stemmed back from our grandfather John Steven Hales who was brought up in the depression. Father would always share stories with us as we grew up and I guess ingrained in us from early on the need for hard work and frugality and getting ahead and paying down our mortgages. So that was always a big a big goal in our lives to get our mortgage paid off. So, I personally got my mortgage paid off a couple of years when I hit 40. But that’s something we try and educate our young people as they get into the working environment to set those goals to be able to get into the real estate market, get married, raise a family, and hopefully get out of debt by the time they’re 40 or sooner.

Gareth: Yeah dad came up pretty tough, actually. Remember the first fight he got in at school? Well, they called him “patchy pants” because grandma made him wear his old grandpa’s pants and his old shoes or something. They were too big. But no, he came up tough. And I used to talk about paying off houses, Dean. I didn’t pay mine off till I was 40 years of age. I started at 17 and then hit 20. I had to take over the business because her cousins moved on to another business. And then we had a bit of a tough run like when the GFC came in ‘07, ‘08 we lost some money we lost some jobs and then 2010 I started UniSpace with Charles. We entered the American market but that was pretty tough and 2 years in we lost a lot of money but we had to trade ourselves out of that and finally probably 5, 7 years after that we cracked it and started to do well but in one sense we weren’t really born with a silver spoon in our mouths. We had to actually work hard for what we got but we don’t regard ourselves as successful. I just say any wins we had was from good collaboration with other smart people and a bit of good luck. Bit of good luck. And you were good at taking us to seminars, Dean. Remember Jim Collins? Good to great. Remember writing down a few notes out of that?

Dean: And the E-Myth.

Lloyd: Do you follow current affairs and news? Like where do you get it getting news from?

Greg: I’m a bit of I’m a bit of a news tragic and sport tragic. Uh, I get my news from all around the world really. You know, from CNN to Fox, obviously Sky News Australia, um, Channel 7, Channel 9, and various streaming services.

Charles: Yeah, I use news.com.au the app. Be lucky to do five, seven minutes a day. I’m bad at it. And I read the newspaper for about 2 minutes while I wait for the coffee. And then I learn everything from when I catch up with Greg about what’s going on.

Gareth: Yeah, I’m pretty passionate about the economy, but just what’s happening on in the world. Like I was fascinated that Trump managed to get a meeting with Putin in Alaska. I know it doesn’t look like a lot came out of it. I bet you there will be a lot that comes out of it. Then I was fascinated that Zelensky got to come across and meet Trump with, you know, the NATO like Italy, France, Germany, UK. It was just excellent to see Zelensky actually wearing a suit, getting on with Trump. But I think some really good things will come out of that. Lloyd, I’m pretty passionate about that. Yeah.

Greg: And hopefully the war ends soon.

Gareth: Correct. Yeah.

Dean: So I guess on that note, as a community, we are very passionate about hope and prosperity and a future for not only all Australians, but the whole globe.

Lloyd: Well, sometimes the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church is in the news and more specifically sometimes your family’s in the news. What’s it feel like to be kind of the focus of a media attention?

Gareth: It’s not real nice, Lloyd. I mean, first off, it feels like a bit of a kick in the guts, but to be honest, after a bit, you sort of just get used to it. And I  shouldn’t say hardened by it, but you just you come to expect it. But what I feel bad is the actual community in the church. They’re just sold of the earth people. They’re actually simple people, and they don’t really deserve that sort of negative publicity. So I actually feel more sorry for the average dads and moms out there that don’t can’t really understand what all this press is about. But go on Charles.

Charles: I was going to say it’s been most of my adult life or even the back end of my childhood. So over the years probably become a bit numb to it. But I feel the same way as Gareth. It would be nice if the other side of the story could be told. And I guess that’s why we’re here today to kickstart. Hopefully a few more members of the PBCC are happy to get out there and tell a different side of the story that that hasn’t been told.

Dean: Yeah, echo those comments from, you know, the last two decades of employing people from all walks of life, not just amongst the Plymouth Brethren. Most of our employees are from the wider community. and they often talk about after they join the organization that what they find out about who we are as people is polar opposite to what they’ve read in the media. So unfortunately, it’s been two decades of negativity and a bit of positivity moving forward would be a would be a good refreshing change.

Greg: Yeah. One of our customers spoke to my general manager and just said, “Boy, your boss is getting the hammering at the moment. Just can’t believe why they keep going after them.” So, it was good to hear that from someone that knows us from outside the community. I always get a few calls and some of the guys go, “What the H you doing on the front page of the paper?” And I go, “Look, mate, wrong place, wrong time.” You always get texts from the old employees at UniSpace. They always text us when an article comes out, “Hang in there. We got your back. You’re all good.” It’s like, “Yeah, we’re good.” It’s just another one.

Lloyd: Well, more recently, the church was in the headlines because a lot of parishioners volunteered for an election campaign. Are there any initial comments you want to say about that issue, Dean?

Dean: Yeah, I think the church doesn’t campaign nor support any political parties um or coordinate any volunteer efforts at all. And I think that’s important to be clarified. Whilst the media has branded the church being a coordinator of political activities, it certainly hasn’t been. But what I can tell you, I myself visited a number of polling boos across Sydney during that election campaign and I did run into a number of members of our church out there participating in the democratic process and they were very passionate. And as I said earlier, I think there’s a real desire there for change and a hope and a prosperity for the future of all Australians.

Lloyd: So, did you all volunteer or?

Gareth: I jumped in for a bit, Lloyd? It was actually nothing to do with the church. It was just really concerned businessmen as business owners and moving in business circles not just in the community but a lot of guys outside the community they were just really concerned about Australia really concerned about the state of the economy cost of living going up the rising crime and then there’s so much social unrest globally look at the issue with you Russia and Ukraine and obviously the Middle East. But we honestly felt that Australia deserved a better stronger a braver leader that can actually working with the US that’s our strongest ally and then working with the UK obviously the whole AUKUS defence policy is important but then also working with NATO, France, Germany, Italy, likeminded smart countries and that’s kind of why we we got involved.

Lloyd: The media commentary suggests that it’s against our religion to vote do you have a comment on that?

Greg: Yeah well traditionally we wouldn’t have voted or haven’t voted I can’t speak for others, but I think times have changed a little bit and it’s really up to personal beliefs as to whether you vote or not. And I’m sure some did and some didn’t.

Dean: We’ve often exercised the right in this country for conscientious objectors. We we’ve used that right, but as Greg has said, it’s not a test of fellowship to vote or not to vote and it’s left up to the individuals.

Charles: And to be fair, it’s not checked on or.. I’m 35 years of age. I’ve never been asked by you guys, by anybody within the church whether I’ve voted or whether I haven’t voted.

Gareth: It’s not a big deal. It’s not a big deal.

Lloyd: Is it true that the church had an arrangement with Peter Dutton’s office or the Liberal Party for the last federal election?

Charles: No. that the church um had no arrangement whatsoever with the Liberal Party or with Peter Dutton or with any other party for that matter. Um the church as a group or as the PBCC don’t connect on with any political party whatsoever. So if individuals within the church choose to back a party or get engaged in the democratic process as Dean said then fine no issues.

Lloyd: So, you’re saying there’s no coordination from the church’s point of view with all our parishioners to encourage them to get involved with a particular political party?

Dean: Not at all. I think I think an important point to note Lloyd is that given we collaborate and connect on a regular basis with a lot of business owners uh that belong to the church across Australia. We have a lot of business seminars and training programs and board advisory roles that we all get involved in. So there’s a lot of communication and collaboration and discussion around the broader issues that are facing the economy in Australia at large.

Lloyd: So why was there so many volunteers this last election from the church?Dean: I think as a result of positive activity of people trying to do their bit.

Charles: Yeah. I’d also say, and I don’t know the numbers of how many small entrepreneurial businesses there are within our church, but all of them as business owners are pretty educated in regards to politics and what impact the economy could have on their business.

Gareth: The country wasn’t in a good place. I mean any business leader or any guy that knew anything about business, they were all saying the same thing.

Charles: Yeah. I went to the local church and I did a bit of volunteering there and I bumped into the cafe owner where I go. Me and him had a chat and he was there doing his bit. I bumped into neighbours. So I think you know there’s it’s a democratic process and a lot of people believe one way, a lot of people follow the other way.

Lloyd: There were some claims that members of the church were threatening or intimidating for other volunteers or voters out there in the booth. Is that what you saw when you were out there?

Charles: No, I definitely didn’t see that. I’m not aware of anything and I’m sure if anybody um acted in a bad way, either from our church or not from our church, I’m sure they were followed up and dealt with accordingly.

Gareth: I wasn’t aware of anything at all. I saw everyone was pretty happy and having a good time and just supporting whatever they were supporting. Yeah.

Lloyd: Is there any other comments you guys would like to make?

Greg: Not at this time.

Dean: Not that I can think of.

Charles: Hopefully our prime minister um can get some more calls with Mr. Trump so that we can reestablish some better links with global powers.

Gareth: Yeah, that would be helpful, Charles. Absolutely. I’d second that.

Lloyd: Well, thanks very much, guys, for your time today and thanks to everyone that’s joined in to listen today. We look forward to your company for the next episode.